At 01:03 PM 3/22/97 -0500, Darren wrote:

>Be nice, maybe they had the laptop in the stall, and found that the stuff
>that passes for vecepapir in Eastern Europe was gone. I larned very
>quickly to carry a few rolls in the backpack when I traveled. :-)

        It is improving greatly. I mean the quality of toilet paper. Eva

The Hungarian language typing comes out as almost unreadable, I think due to yo
ur efforts to use accents which your word-processor does not support.
If my understanding is correct you are highlighting the overwhelming hold by in
dividuals and firms labelled as "Jewish" on Hungarian economic and cultural lif
e.
The extreme right was strengthening and the government was trying to placate th
em by using means which had antecedents in other countries such as England and 
the USA even if these were not officially supported there.

Regards
Dénes 



----------
From:  Miklos K. Hoffmann[SMTP:]
Sent:  Monday, 24 March 1997 3:31
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: numerus clausus in the U.S.

Marina E. Pflieger wrote:
>
> In a message dated 97-03-21 16:35:16 EST,  (E.S. Balogh)
> writes:
> >I have a few correction to Ferenc Novak's piece on the so-called . .  . .  >
>
>
> >I am terribly sorry but I do see a tremendous difference. The
> >numerus clauses had nationwide applicability which practically meant that
> >very many talented students simply couldn't attend university. If they were
> >lucky and their parents could afford it they were sent abroad--this is how
> >those famous Hungarian scientists we like to boast about ended up in German
> >universities and eventually in the United States after Hitler came to power.
>
> I totaly agree with Eva -  Ferenc is comparing apples and oranges. First -
> Hungary's
> Jewish population was not large enough to create the same concerns that they
> may had at Columbia. I believe the intent of the "numerus clausus"  in
> Hungary
> was clearly to keep "undesirables" out of the institutions of higher
> learning.
>
> I have personal knowledge of three such Hungarians - who received their
> education in those days in Vienna and in Paris at the Sorbone. The three
> gentlemen were
> room mates during their school years, none of them came from wealth, in fact
> they came from poor families. They worked their way through school. All three
> became physians and made a name for themselfs in the US - no thanks to their
> place of birth. The irony is that today they are considered  a credit to
> their
> place of birth - and on a way they are.
>
> So lets not kid ourselfs and call it what it was - discrimination on a large
> scale.
>
> Sincerely, Marina

Yes Marina, it was discrimination on a large scale. And I am against
discrimination, too. We must be carefull with the facts, however, if
we want to sweep Ferenc4s comment from the table, want to compare the
situation of Columbia with the one in Budapest and DO NOT WANT to supply
ammunition for the right.
I am quoting the Budapest Lexikon, Vol 1, A-K of the Akadimiai Kiads,
1993, based on an earlier edition during the Kadar-regime, describing
Budapest in the thirties, with the fascist parties strengthening with
German help - from without and from within -  :
< A szelsvsigesen demagsg nyilas parti propaganda a korabeli magyar tar-
sadalomban realisan meglivv problimakra ipmtett. A munkasok helyzetire,
a tvke mindenhatssagara is kizsakmanyols szerepire, ( I DO hope Kristsf
is reading ) a harom millisnyi mezvgazd. koldusra, a jelentvs szamz
irtelmisigi munkanilk|lire is a m. tars. sajatos fejlvdise rivin gazd.
tzlszlyhoz jutott zsidssag elleni fellipisre alapoztak befolyasukat. A
fvkint a baloldallal szemben kiipmtett pol. rendszer eliggi nehezen
tudott fellipni a jobbrsl jvvv tamadassal szemben. A keminy kiz latszat-
intizkedisei ( sic! my remark ) mellett a mar emlmtett szocialis
tv.-eken kmv|l a "zsidstvrvinyek" ztjan igyekeztek a szelet kifogni a
szilsvjobboldal vitorlajabsl. A fvvarosban a lakossag 20,3%-a, az orsz.-
an 5,1%-a volt zsids vallasz. 1930-ban a budapesti hirlapmrsk 36,1, az
|gyvidek 55,8, az orvosok 67,2%-a volt zsids. Az ipari is kereskedelmi
nagy vallalatok, a pinzintizetek tulajdonosainak 51%-nal nagyobb hanyada
volt zsids felekezethez tartozs, de ezek a cigek uraltak a magyar gazda-
sagi ilet 95%-at. Az ez vallalatokban alkalmazott tisztviselvk 73%-a
volt zsids. > I finish the quotation. I hope I didn4t make to many
typing errors. I do not know, how reliable the numbers are. I can recall
that there was a problem in this sense. This DO NOT justify what
happened. I am just commentig your remark "The Jewish population was not
large enough to create the same concerns they may had at Columbia". If
there was a discrimination at Columbia, let us call it
a discrimination, even if it happened in a clean wasp surrounding. As
Dominus ( noster, salve ) pointed out, the world is not black and white.
Shalon. Peace.
Miklss

It is interesting that the ABC (Australian Broadcasting Commission) and its ove
rseas arm Radio Australia are under major review here also with the possibility
 of the latter being shud down and the budget of the ABC being cut drastically.

Regards
Dénes 



----------
From:  Peter A. Soltesz[SMTP:]
Sent:  Monday, 24 March 1997 3:46
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Radio Canada

Dear All:
A while back we spoke about Radio Canada International. I wrote a letter to
the Deputy Prime Minister of Canada and just received a letter reply.

It states that RCI has received funding fro one year from April 1, 1997.

They are aware that RCI is part of the Canadian International Information
Strategy and is being launched by the Dept. of Foreign Affairs and
International Trade.

The letter is signed by Sheila Cropps, Dpty Prime Minister & Minister of
Canadian heritage.

Regards,
Peter Soltesz

E.S. Balogh wrote:
>
> At 07:26 PM 3/22/97 -0500, Ferenc Novak rote:
>
> >P.S.  Can anyone tell me in what year the Numerus Clausus laws  were passed?
>
>         Yes, 1920. ESB

Hello Eva,
also, when I recall it correctly, there was more than one  <Zsidotoer-
veny>. According to what you wrote in an other note, you are worked a
lot on the time between the wars. When were they enacted and how did
they escalate?
Thanks
Miklos

In article >, Denes BOGSANYI
> writes:

>If my understanding is correct you are highlighting the overwhelming =
>hold by individuals and firms labelled as "Jewish" on Hungarian economic =
>and cultural life.
>The extreme right was strengthening and the government was trying to =
>placate them by using means which had antecedents in other countries =
>such as England and the USA even if these were not officially supported =
>there.
>
>Regards
>D=E9nes=20
>
>

See what I mean? He's not going to stop until he's transferred blame for what
post-war Hungarian governments chose to do to the country's Jewish population.
Sam Stowe


"If you hear a Southerner say, 'Hey, y'all, watch this!',
move away from him immediately. They're usually
the last words he'll ever utter..."
-- from "Southbound," a primer for our Northern friends
contemplating a move to the promised land.

Denes BOGSANYI wrote:
>
> The Hungarian language typing comes out as almost unreadable, I think due to
 your efforts to use accents which your word-processor does not support.
> If my understanding is correct you are highlighting the overwhelming hold by
 individuals and firms labelled as "Jewish" on Hungarian economic and cultural
 life.
> The extreme right was strengthening and the government was trying to placate
 them by using means which had antecedents in other countries such as England
 and the USA even if these were not officially supported there.
>
> Regards
> Dines
>
Hallo Denes,

So I was afraid. For this reason did I make the second attempt.
But how does your system work? I recieve an endlessly
long row that wouldn4t fit on a screen or on a printer.

Miklos

Miklos Hoffmann:

>Hello Eva,
>also, when I recall it correctly, there was more than one  <Zsidotoer-
>veny>.

        Under the term, "zsidotorvenyek," we must understand only those
enacted anti-Jewish laws which were passed after 1938. There were three such
laws. The numerus clausus of 1920 was a different cup of tea because, as I
mentioned, the word "Jewish" didn't even appear in the text.

>According to what you wrote in an other note, you are worked a
>lot on the time between the wars.

        Yes, but I know a great deal more about the 1920s than the 1930s. As
for the background on the numerus clausus. The 1920 elections (held at two
different times due to the fact that the Romanian troops were still in
possession of territories east of the Tisza River at the time of the
elections) returned an exceedingly right-wing bunch of deputies. Although
when the second elections were completed the majority of the deputies
belonged to the Smallholders' Party and in theory at least the Smallholders'
Party wasn't supposed to be radical as far as the party program went, the
thinking of the deputies, right after the fall of the Hungarian Soviet
Republic, was pretty much to the right.
         The regime which was established after the fall of the Hungarian
Soviet Republic called itself "kereszteny-nemzeti kurzus" during first few
years of its existence. What the word "kereszteny" and "national" meant in
this context is the topic of a huge historical debate but most historians
feel that it was juxtaposed with "Jewish," and "cosmopolitan." One thing is
sure there was widespread anti-Jewish sentiments in Hungary after the fall
of the Hungarian Soviet Republic because of the heavy Jewish involvement in
the leadership of that soviet experiment. Antisemitic outbursts, especially
on university campuses, were daily occurrences: Jewish students were beaten
up and/or their "indexes" were taken away from them which basically meant
that their proof of ever taking an examination and passing it was down the
drain. (Let me explain what an "index" was. It was a black little book into
which the student himself had to write in the name of the courses he took.
At exam time--all examinations were oral--the student had to take this
"index" along for the professor to sign it and write in his grade.) In any
case, while I was doing research on party politics during the fall of 1919 I
read as many contemporary newspapers as I could lay my hands on and I became
aware of numerous ads in the classified ads section sounding something like
this: X.Y. (normally a very Jewish sounding name, like Izidor Kohn) has lost
his index, please return the index for a reward of such and such to so and
so. There were so many of these ads that eventually I came to the conclusion
that these students "didn't lose their indexes," they were taken away from
them!!! At one point the government had to close all the Budapest
universities because of atrocities committed against Jewish students. And
thus came the idea of a numerus clausus. The suggestion for it came from
Istvan Haller, minister of education in the Teleki government, I assume
partly because he was not exactly a philosemite and partly because of his
desire to appease the extreme right.
        In any case, as I pointed out earlier, the measure was most likely
unconstitutional and against every precedent in Hungarian jurisprudence. It
did hit the Jewish community very hard because Jewish students were indeed
heavily represented in the universities. Suddenly their numbers could not
exceed about five percent of the student body. Budapest's population was
about 25% Jewish, by the way. At one point the Jewish community was thinking
about establishing a "Jewish" university but plans fell through. A lot of
people went abroad to study but many of them couldn't for financial reasons.
The number of conversions suddenly became extremely large as a result of the
happenings of 1919: instead of about 400 a year, in 1919 7,138; in 1920,
1,992; in 1921, 947 people converted.
        Eventually the conversions tapered off because in good Hungarian
fashion the numerus clausus requirements were also more or less ignored. But
it was never abolished officially. As far as the three so-called "Jewish
laws" are concerned they are not at all connected to the numerus clausus of
1920. There were no other discriminatory laws against Jews between 1920 and
1938. So, those laws have an entirely different origin--mostly German
pressure directly and indirectly. But that's a different chapter and a
different era.
        Eva Balogh

At 10:04 PM 3/22/97 GMT, Agnes wrote:

>I already pointed out before that the tragedy of the Hungarian Jews is
>exactly what Marina is talking about.  We were always thinking
>of ourselves as Hungarians of the mosaic fate.  We have no other culture
>or cuisine.  I don't want to list here all the famours playrights,
>writers, poets, musicians, artists, who happened to be Jewish, but became
>famous as Hungarian writers, artists, etc., not as Jewish writers etc.
>But our family casted us out - we were inferior.  And for the European
>Jews we are Hungarians.  We don't speak Jiddish.  We don't eat gefilte
>fish.  99% of us is not kosher.  A huge percentage of us is intermarried.
>I guess, us, Hungarian Jews are a unique bunch.

        This is what I try to explain to my American Jewish friends whose
families came from Russia or Poland. The experiences of those
Yiddish-speaking Polish/Russian Jews from the stetl are so different from
the those of the Hungarians that there is absolutely no comparison. The
Hungarian Jews were totally assimilated in the sense of speaking Hungarian
only, changing German-sounding names to good Hungarian-sounding ones (and by
the way that wasn't only a Jewish custom. My mother was set and ready to
change her German name to a Hungarian one until it turned out that it wasn't
necessary because she got married to my father!), and feeling as Hungarian
as the next-door neighbor. And that's why I feel especially enraged about
what happened to Hungary's Jewish population in 1944, or when I hear all
that stupid anti-semitic junk among certain segments of the Hungarian
population.
        Eva

E.Balogh wrote:

>up and/or their "indexes" were taken away from them which basically meant
>that their proof of ever taking an examination and passing it was down the
>drain. (Let me explain what an "index" was. It was a black little book into
>which the student himself had to write in the name of the courses he took.
>At exam time--all examinations were oral--the student had to take this
>"index" along for the professor to sign it and write in his grade.)

This is still the practice on the Hungarian universities (or was untill
~1993). I myself had two of them because I took so many course that I
completly filled the first one. However, the student suppose to have
the index only during the exam period (~1.5 months). During the regular
term the index should be at the "Dean's office" (dekani hivatal) where
they are compared to the proffesors' reports in order to validate the
grades. So, even if someone loses the index, it is possible to retrieve
his/her academic record.

J.Zs