Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 1028
Copyright (C) HIX
1997-06-14
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Soros Foundation - Marshall Plan - (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Whiners (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Is Hungary Exporting Communists? (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
4 America's Alliance (mind)  48 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Is Hungary Exporting Communists? (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Is Hungary Exporting Communists? (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Whiners (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Holier Than Thou (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: A Critique of the Soros Foundation (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: America's Alliance (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Whiners (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: America's Alliance (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: America's Alliance (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Whiners (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Is Hungary Exporting Communists? (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: Whiners (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: Is Hungary Exporting Communists? (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Soros Foundation - Marshall Plan - (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>
>         The latest: Yeltsin is proposing a referendum on the topic. Let's
> hope that they will have the good sense of putting him into a grave where he
> wanted to be with his wife and family. ESB
>
>

Something we agree on.


+ - Re: Whiners (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Balogh:
>         Maybe not whiners, but Hungarians are known for their pessimism.
> Even when good economic news comes, like right now, most people keep
> insisting that it is simply not true. ESB
>
>
>

Perhaps because a tad better growth figures and a good turnover on
the stockmarket doesn't translate anymore - if ever it did - to
improvement in the standard of living, especially not for the bottom
1/3 of the population.  But this incy-whincy problem gets swept under
the carpet by the present nomenklatura - until the next round of
visible social unease.

+ - Re: Is Hungary Exporting Communists? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 01:54 PM 14/06/97 -0400, you wrote:
>At 02:32 PM 6/13/97 -0700, Gabor Fencsik wrote:
>
>>I don't know the answer to Joe Szalai's question -- "is Hungary
>>exporting Communists?" -- but I think it is an excellent idea.
>>I believe the target for exporting Communists should be doubled
>>in the next Five Year Plan.  Waterloo is fine, but if you know of
>>a place a little farther off, that would be even better.
>
>        I can only second this one. Place of destination could be the Yukon
>Territory. Maybe we can do something about this by getting in touch with the
>president of the Munkaspart! ESB
>
Oh Plleeeaaasseeee ... Not the Yukon ha?  That be too close to comfort ...
to say the very least? C'on Eva, you can do better?

Aniko


>
>
+ - America's Alliance (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

This article, from the Associated Press, was in yesterday's Record
(Kitchener, Ontario)
________________________

U.S. wants only 3 new NATO members

Leaving no room for compromise, U.S. President Bill Clinton drew the line
Thursday at inviting three new members into NATO next month: Poland,
Hungary and the Czech Republic.

The decision dashed hopes of Romania and Slovenia and put the United States
at odds with key allies.

"The United States' position is firm," presidential spokesman Mike McCurry
said.  Asked if it might be overruled, he said, "That's not likely."

The announcement represented a switch to U.S. assertivness after weeks of
diplomacy to build a consensus and avoid antagonizing allies.

By staking out an unambiguous position, Clinton sought to shape the outcome
of next month's NATO summit in Madrid, where the alliance will open its
doors for the first class of new members from former Soviet bloc countries.

Nine of NATO's 16 members have expressed support for admitting Romania and
Slovenia in the first wave of new countries, but the United States has
argued to hold the line at three.  The U.S. stand on important issues
usually prevails in NATO.

The new members are expected to join NATO in 1999, the alliance's 50th
anniversary.

To soften the disappointment of Slovenia and Romania, Clinton said the U.S.
would work with them and other interested countries to help prepare them
for membership.  "As I have repeatedly emphasized," Clinton said, "the
first new members should not and will not be the last."

In Europe, some allies bristled at the White House announcement.

"We don't agree with this solution," Italian Defence Minister Beniamino
Andreatta said in Brussels.

British Defence Minister George Robertson said, "The American decision is
not necessarily the NATO decision."  Yet he acknowledged that U.S.
announcement was "pretty significant and will obviously have a big impact
on the people here."
________________________________

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Is Hungary Exporting Communists? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 02:32 PM 6/13/97 -0700, Gabor Fencsik wrote:

>I don't know the answer to Joe Szalai's question -- "is Hungary
>exporting Communists?" -- but I think it is an excellent idea.
>I believe the target for exporting Communists should be doubled
>in the next Five Year Plan.  Waterloo is fine, but if you know of
>a place a little farther off, that would be even better.

Are you confused, Gabor?  You sound as if you're playing the Chicago
futures market.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Is Hungary Exporting Communists? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 04:48 PM 6/13/97 -0400, Janos Zsargo wrote:

>J.Szalai wrote:
>
>>What I find interesting in all this is that despite the anti-communist
>>propaganda and vitriol, many people in Hungary and Eastern Europe have a
>>memory, a collective memory, that things can be different.  They know this
>>from their own experience -- and political and economic theories that deny
>>this is useless to them -- regardless of what the Hungarian elite say.
>
>This is interesting. I thought that the 'modern' communists are actually
>denying any relationship, connection with the 'existing' (or more accurately
>existed) socialism. They keep saying, as Eva Durant did on this list, that
>it has nothing to do with the 'REAL' one (which is still about to come).
>Now, at least according to Joe, we should have nostalgy for that bad,
distorted
>pseudo-socialism?!?

You have a real talent for twisting what others write, Janos.  Show me
where I said we should be nostalgic for the old system.  Or are you going
to claim poor English language skills - again?

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Whiners (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:27 PM 6/13/97 -0400, Eva Balogh wrote:

<snip>
>        Maybe not whiners, but Hungarians are known for their pessimism.
>Even when good economic news comes, like right now, most people keep
>insisting that it is simply not true. ESB

That's probably because "most" people will not see any of the benifits of
the "good" economic news.  Or, have you forgotten that wealth is not shared
equally under capitalism.  Besides, being pessimistic is not the same as
being wrong.

Joe Szalai

"What breaks capitalism, all that will ever break capitalism, is
capitalists. The faster they run the more strain on their heart."
        --- Raymond Williams
+ - Re: Holier Than Thou (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 02:47 PM 6/13/97 -0700, Gabor Fencsik wrote:

<snip>
>Some day I too would like to be a holy man like Joe.  Is that too much
>to ask for?  Perhaps it is.  Perhaps I am overly ambitious.  But I can
>at least dream about it, can't I?  Maybe (just maybe) if I keep working
>on it I can do it.  I just need to figure out where to start.  Maybe Joe
>can help me figure it out.  Maybe I can start small, and work my way up
>the holiness scale.  Let' say Joe's holiness score is 100, and one of
>these days (if I play my cards right)  I could work my score up to 33.
>Then I could die a happy man.  May not go to the same place the guys
>and gals with a perfect score go, but still die a happy man, knowing
>that at least I tried.

Nice homily, Gabor, but ethical investing has nothing to do with holiness
or beatification -- not even in my case, and certainly not in yours.

If ethics is important, invest in those companies that exploit their
products, services, know-how, or distribution, and not in companies that
exploit their employees.  It's really that simple.  Unfortunately, because
there are no global standards or global enforcement of labour laws, it's
often much easier for a company to get an edge over their competition by
exploiting "their" workers.  And investors, who are always looking for the
best return on their dollar, encourage these exploitive companies with
their investments.  Greed before ethics can guarantee a quick return on
your buck, but there will be significant social, economic, political, and
environmental costs - later.  And who'll pay for that?  (See, Amos.  I do
ask the "who pays for it" question, but not in the pat, right-wing mode,
that you're familiar with.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: A Critique of the Soros Foundation (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:27 PM 6/13/97 -0400, Eva Balogh wrote:

<snip>
>        Not surprisingly the Hungarian right has a very similar attitude
>toward the IMF. Their favorite bogey. You and they have a lot in common,
>it seems. ESB

The IMF has real power over the democratically elected representatives of
the people, yet no one voted for them.  Nor does it represent all views.
The IMF is nothing more than a glorified protection racket.  Their policy
is "do as we tell you, - or else!"  Isn't that what a protection racket
does?  So, not being enamoured by the IMF shows that I value democracy more
than you do.  After all, you're always eager to relinquish real power,
power that should be in the hands of the people, to "market forces", IMF's,
and other non-elected agencies and bodies.

And if the Hungarian right doesn't like the IMF, that's their problem.  It
doesn't mean I have much in common with them.

Joe Szalai

"Money is better than poverty, if only for financial reasons."
           --- Woody Allen
+ - Re: America's Alliance (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:07 AM 6/14/97 -0400, "Amos J. Danube" wrote:

>Joe Szalai wrote:
>>
>> This article, from the Associated Press, was in yesterday's Record
>> (Kitchener, Ontario)
>> ________________________
>>
>> U.S. wants only 3 new NATO members
>>
>   What is your point, Joe? All the countries have the right to look
>out for their own interest, but the US?
>   Tough, Joe. I am getting tired of your US bashing.
>                                                       Amos

Amos wrote the following to Janos Zsargo just the other day:

"It would serve you well, Janos, to read the whole message and think
about it. Then read it again and think  about it again before you jump
in and make a fool out of yourself."

It seems to me that you are responding to "U.S. wants only 3 new NATO
members."  Well, what can I say?  That was the headline for the article I
quoted.  I didn't write the headline and I don't work for the Record or the
Associated Press.  I'm just the messanger.  Your argument, if you have one,
is with the Record or the AP, and not me.  Get it?

Joe Szalai

"How can I tell what I think till I see what I say?"
               --- Edward Morgan Forster
+ - Re: Whiners (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 01:54 PM 6/14/97 -0400, Eva Balogh wrote:

>At 09:57 AM 6/14/97 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:
>
>>Or, have you forgotten that wealth is not shared
>>equally under capitalism.
>
>        My God, you *are* tiresome. ESB

I may be tiresome but you've got a piss-poor way of deflecting my criticism.

Joe Szalai

"To get to know a truth properly, one must polemicize it."
         --- Novalis
+ - Re: America's Alliance (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> This article, from the Associated Press, was in yesterday's Record
> (Kitchener, Ontario)
> ________________________
>
> U.S. wants only 3 new NATO members
>
   What is your point, Joe? All the countries have the right to look
out for their own interest, but the US?
   Tough, Joe. I am getting tired of your US bashing.
                                                       Amos
+ - Re: America's Alliance (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> It seems to me that you are responding to "U.S. wants only 3 new NATO
> members."  Well, what can I say?  That was the headline for the article I
> quoted.  I didn't write the headline and I don't work for the Record or the

> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Associated Press.  I'm just the messanger.  Your argument, if you have one,
> --------------------------------------------
> is with the Record or the AP, and not me.  Get it?

   Good old, Joe.  Alway trying to avoid responsibility. You have posted
the article only because  it listed all those who seem  to oppose the US
on limitig NATO's expension.  Until now you were  against the extension,
now you are criticizing  the size of it.  I haven't seen  the underlined
excuse since my daughter tried something similar,she was 5 years old.She
became a responsible person through the years. What happened to you,Joe?
Are you ever going to reach that stage in your life?
   Is Canada going  to pay  what some say  will be a  very expensive ex-
expansion? Heck no! If it turns out to be really expensive, we will have
to pay for it and Canada is going to look the other way.
   But you know all that.You just love to be contrary and want to appear
to be a concerned citizen. Well, you can fool some of the people ...
                                                                    Amos
+ - Re: Whiners (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:57 AM 6/14/97 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:

>Or, have you forgotten that wealth is not shared
>equally under capitalism.

        My God, you *are* tiresome. ESB
+ - Re: Is Hungary Exporting Communists? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 02:32 PM 6/13/97 -0700, Gabor Fencsik wrote:

>I don't know the answer to Joe Szalai's question -- "is Hungary
>exporting Communists?" -- but I think it is an excellent idea.
>I believe the target for exporting Communists should be doubled
>in the next Five Year Plan.  Waterloo is fine, but if you know of
>a place a little farther off, that would be even better.

        I can only second this one. Place of destination could be the Yukon
Territory. Maybe we can do something about this by getting in touch with the
president of the Munkaspart! ESB
+ - Re: Whiners (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 07:20 PM 6/14/97 GMT, Eva Durant wrote:
>Eva Balogh:
>>         Maybe not whiners, but Hungarians are known for their pessimism.
>> Even when good economic news comes, like right now, most people keep
>> insisting that it is simply not true. ESB
>>
>>
>>
>
>Perhaps because a tad better growth figures and a good turnover on
>the stockmarket doesn't translate anymore - if ever it did - to
>improvement in the standard of living, especially not for the bottom
>1/3 of the population.  But this incy-whincy problem gets swept under
>the carpet by the present nomenklatura - until the next round of
>visible social unease.

        They have always been pessimists even under the best of
circumstances. Were they really satisfied economically or politically under
the Kadar regime? Of course not. They complained as much then as they do now.
        The economic upturn will not translate immediately into dollars in
the pockets. It is a slow process. So, don't be too happy, too soon. (I am
sure that for some perverse reasons you would love the market economy fail
in Hungary instead of producing a well-off citizenry.) ESB
+ - Re: Is Hungary Exporting Communists? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 3:17 PM -0300 6/14/97, Aniko Dunford wrote:
>At 01:54 PM 14/06/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>At 02:32 PM 6/13/97 -0700, Gabor Fencsik wrote:
>>
>>>I don't know the answer to Joe Szalai's question -- "is Hungary
>>>exporting Communists?" -- but I think it is an excellent idea.
>>>I believe the target for exporting Communists should be doubled
>>>in the next Five Year Plan.  Waterloo is fine, but if you know of
>>>a place a little farther off, that would be even better.
>>
>>        I can only second this one. Place of destination could be the Yukon
>>Territory. Maybe we can do something about this by getting in touch with the
>>president of the Munkaspart! ESB
>>
>Oh Plleeeaaasseeee ... Not the Yukon ha?  That be too close to comfort ...
>to say the very least? C'on Eva, you can do better?
>
>Aniko
>
>
>>
>>
I wander how many of us were so clean of communist indoctrination upon
leaving Hungary. Of course it depends how many years one lived under Rakosi
and/or Kadar, age, education, location, family background etc. Most
immigrants are originally quite critical of their receiving country. Give
the young lady of Ontario a few years, time to learn and to mature.

Peter I. Hidas
Montreal

AGYKONTROLL ALLAT AUTO AZSIA BUDAPEST CODER DOSZ FELVIDEK FILM FILOZOFIA FORUM GURU HANG HIPHOP HIRDETES HIRMONDO HIXDVD HUDOM HUNGARY JATEK KEP KONYHA KONYV KORNYESZ KUKKER KULTURA LINUX MAGELLAN MAHAL MOBIL MOKA MOZAIK NARANCS NARANCS1 NY NYELV OTTHON OTTHONKA PARA RANDI REJTVENY SCM SPORT SZABAD SZALON TANC TIPP TUDOMANY UK UTAZAS UTLEVEL VITA WEBMESTER WINDOWS