On Fri, 2 Dec 1994 16:15:37 +0000 Eva Durant said:
>>
>If nobody takes it seriously, how come they publicly humiliated Blair
>about it?

--Interpretation I have is that the vote to retain Clause Four
was a matter of nostalgia.  The last I looked, Blair was still
leader of the party.

  It is Charles-type  democracy everywhere - let the poor
>dears vote for a policy, we will do something completely different
>for their own good... Hm. Familiar sentiment.

--Yes, it is familar.  The Communist Party has been following
it for years.  Don't identify me with it.

Charles

I would like to help you in any way possible if you could detail your
request. If you would like I have been studying the interrelationship of
the Hungarian language with many other Eurasian languages for many years
as a hobby and have comparaisons to about a dozen different language
groups in a text form on my BBS called BUDAPEST BBS, (714)895-4885.
These include such standard dictionary materials as the Finno-Ugrian
comparisons as well as many other groups such as Turkic, Chuvash,
Dravidian, Sumerian, Hurrian, etc... There are also textual explanations
of various basic culture workds common with our nearest linguistic
relatives which by the way are all quite distantly related only.
Hungarian does not have close linguistic relatives like most of the
Indo-European languages today only distant ones. That is why it is so
absurd to make too great a comparison or implications about our history
based on distant linguistic links. In any case contact me on the net or
call the BBS for a download after I up your clealrance..
Fred Hamori

> Felado : Eva S. Balogh
> Temakor: Life expectancy in Hungary ( 17 sor )

> figures of life expectancy. The second district's [the Ro1zsadomb, or Hill of
> Roses, a very well-off neighborhood] statistics are the same as those of
> Belgium, the nineteenth district's [Ko3ba1nya, a working-class district] can
> be compared to the statistics of Syria.
>
> I wonder what kind of conclusions can be drawn from these highly divergent
> figures.
The obvious one: that people on Ro1zsadomb live better than people in
Ko3ba1nya. If you did a similar study here, I wouldn't be surprised to find
that the people in Atherton (a good neighborhood around here) had comparably
higher life expectancy than the people in East Palo Alto (a bad neighborhood
perhaps five miles from Atherton). One side of this, namely that the average
person on the Ro1zsadomb is about as well off as the average Belgian, is
quite easy to believe. I can only hope that the other side, namely that the
average person in Ko3ba1nya is in a situation comparable to that of the
average Syrian, is harder to believe. I say this as someone from Ro1zsadomb,
let's hear from those from Ko3ba1nya.

> Temakor: NATO and Horn ( 32 sor )
> >in November, MTI reports. Horn had said that Hungary
> >supported an "intensive dialogue with Moscow in order to
> >dissipate misunderstandings and fears" among the Russian
> >leadership.
>
> I must say this sounds pretty terrible. Almost as if we were still living at
> the time when Hungary was totally dependent on the Soviet Union and every
> time it made the slightest foreign policy move it had to consult with Moscow.
> As the matter of fact, Hungary should not discuss this matter with Russia at
> all. It is better to leave this task to the United States and the other NATO
> members.
On the one hand I think E1va has the upper hand against Zoli inasmuch as
Horn's commitment to NATO seems lukewarm at best. On the other hand I
totally disagree that Hungary should play the roaring mouse with Russia.  In
particular to leave the negotiating to the US, where a Strobe Talbot can at
any moment sell Hungary down the river just to win a few points with Russia
would be folly. Let's face it: Russia is a major power and Hungary isn't.
There is no historical reason to believe that Hungary (or the whole region)
is of great significance to NATO beyond being a convenient buffer zone. In
fact there are good historical reasons to think otherwise: 56, 68, and 81.

But forget history and look at contemporary events: the Serbs are silently
(and sometimes not so silently) supported by Russia, and NATO is, to put it
mildly, rather reluctant to act against this. The upshot is that Hungary
must negotiate with Russia, like it or not. It was a good thing to have
Ukraine as a buffer zone, but it can be reabsorbed in Russia at any time,
and priority number one is to make sure that the same doesn't happen to
Hungary. The effective guarantor of this can only be Russia, so to secure
their blessing for joining NATO is not such a bad idea. Now we hear that
Germany recognized Bosnia "prematurely". What if a year after joining NATO
Hungary is attacked?  We will soon learn that Hungary's NATO membership was
premature, and the agressors (not necessarily Russia -- Hungary has as much
or more to fear from its Serbian, Slovak, and Romanian neighbors) will have
their way. Slovakia already did, and I'm eagerly awaiting the justice meted
out in Brussels.

Andra1s Kornai

Alexander Berendi ) wrote:
: There are two different varieties depending the meat used: beef and lamb.
                                                                      ^^^^^
hog AH!

:  When the word "gulyas" is mentioned without any qualifier, beef is implied.
maybe diszno' hus AH!

: Sautee some onions, when soft but not burned put cubed beef in skillet.
sautee in HOG lard (zsir)... till glassy... put cubed PORK in skiller.

: Add
: generous amount of red pepper, small amount of cumin seed, salt and pepper
: and mix.
add parika, ko:me'nymag (caroway), S/P and white pepper

: Make sure that while adding the spices the heat is turned down as
: the red pepper(paprika) has a tendency to turn bitter if burned.
yup! got it right!

: Once the stuff is mixed add water.  Keep in mind that gulyas in Hungary is a
: soup, thus a lot of water is to be added.
yup! add lotsa water...

: Adding a tomato and a bell pepper to the soup improves the flavor.  Some
: people even add some spatzle or cubed potatoes to it.
ONE (small) tomato, bell pepper iz ok, LOTSA potatoes (without it what iz it?)
BTW nokedli (spatzle) iz better with csirke paprika's/ not gulya's.
you got it right (mostly)... fedex me some next tyme...

: Enjoy

: Alex

now how about "sze'kely gulya's" (forget the paprika -- 50/50 beef
and pork and lotsa sourkraut w. some taters) ima getting hungry just writing
about it... (of course all of this is BEST in a big kettle cooked on an open
fire rewarmed on the 2nd day)

later
emil :) good eats!
ps: few mgys eat lamb!

I have to add a few things to the Gulyas recipes published in Hungary:
The most important thing is to use paprika IMPORTED FROM HUNGARY. This is
not to support Hungarian economy (especially now...), but no other
paprika tastes right.  The second point: I consider the addition of cubed
potatoes essential: the starch makes the liquid just right.  This should
be added later, because beef and lamb require longer cooking.  For
spaetzle, the boxed one is quite expenses: simply mix flower and water to
make a firm dough, gradually roll portions to a cigarette shape and cut
it to centimeter long pieces.  They can be cooked the same length of time
as the meat and do enhance the gastronomical pleasure.  Finally, I like
to prepare chicken gulyas (in Hungary I saw it called "kalocsai gulya's),
same recipe, except no caraway seed (not to be confused with cumin for
beef and lamb recipes; cumin tastes different, komenymag = caraway seed).
I am strongly anti-tomato and strongly pro-bell pepper.  A pinch marjoram
won't hurt either.
        Now I feel like Pavlov's dog, so I finish here.
                                R

Emil -_

When pork is used (disznohus) you don't call the dish gulyas.  You call it
porkolt. (sertesporkolt that is.)  You can make it gulyas-like with lotsa
water (hosszu lere eresztheted) and it will be like gulyas but nobody calls
pork based dish gulyas.

Now, the szekelygulyas is a completely other matter.  It is, in fact, the
pork, gulyas-like but reduced to a thick sauce rather than soup consistency,
dish that you are talking about.(sertesporkolt)  It is mixed into cooked
sauerkraut (savanyukaposzta) along with sourcream(Yes. Tejfol)

As for nokedli (spaetzli) it is better with yardbird gulyas (csirkepaprikas)
but CSIPETKE, my boy, is better with gulyas.

It's funny that gulyas and food in general can interface Hungarians.

Udv.

Alex

Since it appears that an array of different gulyases is developing here, let
me add that adding navy beans to the soup along with small spaetzli is a
particularly pleasing soup, referred to in Hungarian as babgulyas.

Jaus a word of caution about imported Hungarian paprika.  While I fully agree
with you that only hungarian paprika will do (in fact I would go further to
state that domesticly purchased "non export quality" is better) I remind
everybody of the recent health problems that were caused by tainted paprika
in Hungary.  (I guess some people mixed lead in it for added color or
something.)

Alex the lo'ko:to"
;-)

Andra1s Kornai writes:

> But forget history and look at contemporary events: the Serbs are silently
> (and sometimes not so silently) supported by Russia, and NATO is, to put it
> mildly, rather reluctant to act against this.

The fact that Nato has no treaty obligation to act in xYugoslavia might
be pertinent.


> The upshot is that Hungary
> must negotiate with Russia, like it or not. It was a good thing to have
> Ukraine as a buffer zone, but it can be reabsorbed in Russia at any time,
> and priority number one is to make sure that the same doesn't happen to
> Hungary. The effective guarantor of this can only be Russia,

If a paroled burglar moves next door to me, I'd be nice to him, but
I'd still buy a security system if one comes along at the right price.

"Effective" is not the only quality one looks for, either.  I think
reliability should count, too.

The question "Who, overall, is the best  guarantor, Russia or Nato?"
If forced to choose only one,
my guess would be Nato.  Both would be better, best would be bilateral
agreements with all neighbors on top.


> so to secure
> their blessing for joining NATO is not such a bad idea.

No it isn't.  But if the blessings don't flow from that particular
fountain, join Nato anyway.


> Now we hear that
> Germany recognized Bosnia "prematurely". What if a year after joining NATO
> Hungary is attacked?
> We will soon learn that Hungary's NATO membership was premature,

Or we might learn it came just in time.

If you're suggesting that treaties turn out to be meaningless, then why
would one with Russia be any better?  Whose societal and political structure
is more stable, Nato's or Russia's, and what does that suggest about
the faith one can put in treaties with either?


> and the agressors (not necessarily Russia -- Hungary has as much
> or more to fear from its Serbian, Slovak, and Romanian neighbors) will have
> their way.

Or maybe not.  Just maybe a treaty obligation will lead to more than
hand wringing.


But, this may all be moot.  Nato might just fall apart over the lack
of action in xYugo.


--Greg

Let me respond to the comment below:

'Of course, this mountain of debt was acquired (and wasted) under
communist Prime Ministers (interestingly, e.g. by the same name of
"George" Lazar), and under communist Finance Ministers (such as Mr.
Bekesi, who is back in his exact same post after the manipulated
"elections" this Spring). Thus, it should not be surprising that those
who were gravely mistaken at that time are mortally mistaken still.'

First of all, I agree, Hungary's #1 problem is the debt issue. All other
political (non-political) issues are secondary since the 'crushing
mountain' of debt will remain with the country for a long time.

The second question is, how did Hungary get into this position ?
The popular explanation is that the communists (lately liberals)
fooled the Hungarian people, wasted the money under the Kadar
regime. Again, in my opinion, the external debt provided a relatively
higher standard of living in Hungary in the 60s and 70s. Misguided
industrial investments created full employment, housing, political
stability and 'goulash communism'.  You may call  this policy 'irresponsible',
but the fact is that the  external debt was under control; Hungary was
able to make payment without crippling the economy.

The Antall regime opened the floodgate. While they kept the external
debt growth at low levels, they discovered how easy to issue internal
debt and finance the annual budget deficits ($ 2-3 milliard) with Ft
denominated debt instruments. This resulted in high internal interest
rates, an overvalued Ft, very slow internal investments and capital
formation. The Antall/Boross regimes inability to deal with the budget
deficit truly crippled the country.

Solution ?

1., Balance the budget
2., Devalue the Ft. (180 Ft/$) to help export growth in the service sector.
3., Keep our fingers crossed that the economy can 'outgrow' the
     crippling effect of the debt.

-george

Here are two recipes for gulya's. The first one is George Lang's (well-known
restauranteur and now co-owner of Gundel a very famous restaurant in
Budapest). The source is George Lang, *The Cuisine of Hungary* (New York:
Bonanza Books, 1971). The second one is a favorite of mine. It is done in a
pressure cooker and therefore it takes only a few minutes, instead of hours.

Here is the Lang recipe:

Kettle gulya's (Bogra'csgulya's) 8 servings

2 medium-sized onions
2 tablespoons lard
2 1/2 pounds beef chuck or round, cut to 3/4-inch cubes
1 garlic clove
pinch of caraway seeds
salt
2 tablespoons "Noble Rose" paprika
1 medium-sized ripe tomato (it can be canned too)
2 green frying or Italian peppers
1 pound potatoes

(1) Peel onions and chop into coarse pieces. Melt lard in a heavy 6- to
8-quart Dutch oven. Saute' onions in lard. Heat should be low in order not to
brown the onions.
(2) When onions become glossy, add beef. Stir so that during this part of the
process, which should last for about 10 minutes, the meat will be saute'ed
with the onions.
(3) Meanwhile, chop and crush the garlic with the caraway seeds and a little
salt; use the flat side of a heavy knife.
(4) Take kettle from heat. Stir in paprika and the garlic mixture. Stir
rapidly with a wooden spoon. Immediately after paprika is absorbed, add 2 1/2
quarts *warm* water. (Cold water toughens meat if you add it while the meat
is frying.)
(5) Replace covered kettle over low heat and cook for about 1 hour.
(6) While the braising is going on, peel the tomato, then cut into 1-inch
pieces. Core green peppers and slice into rings. Peel potatoes and cut into
3/4-inch dice.
(7) After meat has been braised for about 1 hour (the time depends on the cut
of the meat), add the cut-up tomato and green peppers and enough water to
give a coup consistency. Add a little salt. Simmer slowly for another 30
minutes.
(8) Add potatoes, and cook the *gulya's* till done. Adjust salt. Add hot
cherry pepper pods if you want to make the stew spicy hot.
(9) Serve the *gulya's* steaming hot in large extra-deep bowls. The meat
should be tender, but not falling apart.

(I am afraid, you must use lard. If you don't the gulya's is practically
inedible. Believe me, I tried.)


The second recipe I picked up somewhere and refined it a bit on my own:


Here it is:

2 wooden spoonfuls lard
1 onion, finely chopped
1 tsps. paprika
2 lbs. top round, cut into 1-inch cubes
1 green pepper, chopped
1 tomato, quartered
2 large potatoes, cubed
1 cup white wine
pinch of cayenne or hot pepper flakes
salt and pepper to taste

In a pressure cooker saute'e the onions until golden. Stir in the paprika.
Add the meat; brown quickly. Add the pepper, tomato, potatoes. Gradually add
the wine. Add the seasonings and water to cover. Cook for 15 minutes. Cool by
the quick method.

I am sure you will be happy with either recipes. By the way, caraway seeds is
optional--some people claim that it is a Viennese addition to the original
recipe. As you can see, I left them out from my standby pressure cooker
variety. On the other hand, I added wine, in my opinion, a good addition.

Jo' e'tva'gyat! Eva Balogh

Imre Szekeres on the TV news seriously questioned the objectivity of the TV's
political programs. Szekeres's criticism reminded Hungarian journalists of
the first, awkward statements of the Antall government, which began the media
war. According to Iva1n Peto3, Szekeres is only the designated spokesman
because Peto3 heard the same criticism from the prime minister himself. Peto3
apparently tried to convince Gyula Horn not to criticize the press but he
wouldn't listen.

Gyo2rgy Nej immediately wrote a short essay entitled "Scapegoats." Nej quotes
La1szlo1 Lengyel (from his interview I had quoted extensively but left out
this particular sentence) saying that "from certain viewpoints there are
already scapegoats . . . and I cautiously venture to state that the political
leadership already looks upon the media in a surly fashion (ovatosan meg
merem kockaztatni, hogy mar a sajtora is meglehetosen mogorvan nez a
politikai vezetes). His prediction was accurate. . . . " In the rest of the
essay Nej explains that the government or the party, or whoever cannot poke
their noses into the media. It is not their place to tell how to run the TV's
political programs which is supposed to be independent. Soon enough, says
Nej, people will believe all those rumors, "like Horn asking for extra
program time and not once and not only on the TV. They may believe that the
prime minister no longer wants to talk to a journalist of the *168 ora,* who
before was always a welcome visitor. They may also believe that he refused to
talk to a foreign journalist who was asking sensitive questions. In one word,
the people might believe that the MSZP is starting to resemble the much
criticized MDF. And if all these things are believed, people can't believe
that the MSZP actually wants an independent radio and television. And if this
is the case, soon enough the people will not believe anything the socialists
say.
But then comes the time of the TV critics."

The media is not the only problem the Horn government is facing but more
about those matters later.

Eva Balogh