Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 1038
Copyright (C) HIX
1997-06-24
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Voting Intentions in Hungary (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
2 HL-Action: Support Romania's NATO Integration (mind)  199 sor     (cikkei)
3 (Fwd) Re: (mind)  113 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Szalai's righteousness :-) - (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: (Fwd) Re: (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Whiners (mind)  46 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Szalai's righteousness :-) - (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Szalai's righteousness :-) - (mind)  57 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Voting Intentions in Hungary (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Szalai's righteousness :-) - (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: (Fwd) Re: (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
12 Kossuth in N.America (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
13 Kossuth in N.America (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Voting Intentions in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Joe Szalai wrote:

> At 08:04 PM 6/23/97 -0400, Eva Balogh, arguing with Eva Durant wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >        I try to put people down? You two put yourselves down without any
> >help from me. Everybody on this list think that you two are real loonies.
> >I'm not sure which one of you is the greater looney. But perhaps you! Joe
> >Szalai is close second though. ESB
>
> Well, I know I can't speak for everybody on this list the way Eva Balogh
> can, but if Eva Balogh represents the non-loonies,  I'll proudly take my
> place amongst the loonies.   For some reason I've always felt more at home
> with the outcast.  And a good thing, too, because I always end up there.
>

Don't feel bad Joe, "real people" left this list long time ago because
they can't stand the tiresome insults from Eva Balogh.

Barna Bozoki
+ - HL-Action: Support Romania's NATO Integration (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
   URGENT!!

Background:
  The simultaneous integration of Romania and Hungary into NATO is in
the best interest of our Transylvanian Hungarian brethren, of the
region, and of our peoples and countries. This is also recognized by
the RMDSZ and by Hungarian politicians of the government as well as of
the opposition.
  Unfortunately, Romania is rarely mentioned when Western politicians
talk about NATO expansion. In a few weeks the NATO members will
adjudicate upon Romania's integration into NATO in the first wave. Now
we have to act URGENTLY.

What to do:
  Please support Romania's integration into the NATO by sending
Secretary of State Albright, Vice President Al Gore and President
Clinton the attached (or similar) letters.
  Note these politicians will only take notice if she receives
thousands of letters. Therefore please send at least one letter every
day and ask your friends who do not have contact with HL to do the
same.

e-mail address of Albright:


e-mail address of Gore:


e-mail address of Clinton:



*************************************************************

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter to Albright:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

The Honorable Madeleine Albright
United States Secretary of State
U.S. Department of State
2201 C Street, NW
Washington, DC  20520
E-Mail: )

Dear Madame Secretary:

As a member of the Hungarian Lobby I am deeply interested in the
future of East-Central Europe, and recognize the need for simultaneous
integration of the countries of the region into NATO. This would
stabilize the whole region and assure the orderly transition toward
democracy and market economy, without the turmoil seen in the former
Yugoslavia.

Romania, a country of 23 milion people, with affinity toward western
culture, at the same time represents the best potential base of
stability in the Balkans.

Romania's ongoing political democratization and reorganization of all
central and local governmental institutions, the inclusion of the
large Hungarian minority in the government, and the expected
subsequent satisfaction of legitimate minority claims are -- and may
become -- positive examples for the countries of the region.

A look at the map of Europe shows Romania to be the gateway to the
East. Only through this gateway will it be possible to access the
heart of Europe, and the key that will allow this gateway to stay open
-- and to defend it effectively at the same time -- is NATO membership
for Romania.

With an important economic potential due to a large and fertile
agricultural area, her metallurgical and defense industries ready to
produce for her allies, possessing the biggest maritime port in
Eastern Europe, with a multiethnic population and large urban
comunities, Romania is just as much an important future partner and
ally of the European Community and of NATO as are Poland, the Czech
Republic, and Hungary.

For all the above considerations, I ask you, Madame Secretary, to
support the inclusion of Romania, along with Hungary, the Czech
Republic and Poland, among the first group of countries to be
integrated into NATO.

Respectfully,

<name, title, address>

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter to Al Gore:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

The Honorable Al Gore
Vice President of the United States
The White House
Washington, D.C. 20001
(e-mail: )

Dear Mr. Vice President:

As a member of the Hungarian Lobby I am deeply interested in the
future of East-Central Europe, and recognize the need for simultaneous
integration of the countries of the region into NATO. This would
stabilize the whole region and assure the orderly transition toward
democracy and market economy, without the turmoil seen in the former
Yugoslavia.

Romania, a country of 23 milion people, with affinity toward western
culture, at the same time represents the best potential base of
stability in the Balkans.

Romania's ongoing political democratization and reorganization of all
central and local governmental institutions, the inclusion of the
large Hungarian minority in the government, and the expected
subsequent satisfaction of legitimate minority claims are -- and may
become -- positive examples for the countries of the region.

A look at the map of Europe shows Romania to be the gateway to the
East. Only through this gateway will it be possible to access the
heart of Europe, and the key that will allow this gateway to stay open
-- and to defend it effectively at the same time -- is NATO membership
for Romania.

With an important economic potential due to a large and fertile
agricultural area, her metallurgical and defense industries ready to
produce for her allies, possessing the biggest maritime port in
Eastern Europe, with a multiethnic population and large urban
comunities, Romania is just as much an important future partner and
ally of the European Community and of NATO as are Poland, the Czech
Republic, and Hungary.

For all the above considerations, I ask you, Mr. Vice President, to
support the inclusion of Romania, along with Hungary, the Czech
Republic and Poland, among the first group of countries to be
integrated into NATO.

Respectfully,

<name, title, address>

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter to Clinton:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

The Honorable Bill Clinton
President of the United States
The White House
Washington, D.C. 20001
(e-mail: )

Dear Mr. President:

As a member of the Hungarian Lobby I am deeply interested in the
future of East-Central Europe, and recognize the need for simultaneous
integration of the countries of the region into NATO. This would
stabilize the whole region and assure the orderly transition toward
democracy and market economy, without the turmoil seen in the former
Yugoslavia.

Romania, a country of 23 milion people, with affinity toward western
culture, at the same time represents the best potential base of
stability in the Balkans.

Romania's ongoing political democratization and reorganization of all
central and local governmental institutions, the inclusion of the
large Hungarian minority in the government, and the expected
subsequent satisfaction of legitimate minority claims are -- and may
become -- positive examples for the countries of the region.

A look at the map of Europe shows Romania to be the gateway to the
East. Only through this gateway will it be possible to access the
heart of Europe, and the key that will allow this gateway to stay open
-- and to defend it effectively at the same time -- is NATO membership
for Romania.

With an important economic potential due to a large and fertile
agricultural area, her metallurgical and defense industries ready to
produce for her allies, possessing the biggest maritime port in
Eastern Europe, with a multiethnic population and large urban
comunities, Romania is just as much an important future partner and
ally of the European Community and of NATO as are Poland, the Czech
Republic, and Hungary.

For all the above considerations, I ask you, Mr. President, to
support the inclusion of Romania, along with Hungary, the Czech
Republic and Poland, among the first group of countries to be
integrated into NATO.

Respectfully,

<name, title, address>
+ - (Fwd) Re: (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva B. called me or Joe stupid, as we suggested, that
Hitler called himself a christian.  It is my dismal duty
to inform her - she is wrong - again.
So - if you call him socialist, you have to call him
a christian, too, I'm afraid.
(I have to spell it out these days, for the sake of some.)


"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator.
 By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work."
           [Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936]

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no
religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious
foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and
religion must be derived from faith . . . we need believing people."
       [Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, from a speech made during
        negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant of 1933]

   "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a
fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a
few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men
to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer
but as a fighter.  In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read
through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might
and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and
adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison.
    Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more
profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to
shed his blood upon the Cross.
    As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I
have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice...  And if there is
anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the
distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own
people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and
labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages
wretchedness and misery.
    When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their
queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no
Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as
did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this
poor people are plundered and exposed."
       [Adolf Hitler, speech on April 12, 19922, published in
        "My New Order", quoted in Freethought Today April 1990]

"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance
 with the will of the Almighty Creator."
    [Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp. 46]

"This human world of ours would be inconceivable without
 the practical existence of a religious belief."
    [Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.152]

"And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his
 estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary,
 He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God."
        [Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.174]

"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so"
    [Adolph Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941]

"Any violence which does not spring from a spiritual
 base, will be wavering and uncertain.  It lacks the
 stability which can only rest in a fanatical outlook."
    [Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, p. 171]

"I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor
 of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed
 to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest
 and most desirable ideal."
          [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 1]

"I was not in agreement with the sharp anti-Semitic tone, but from time
 to time I read arguments which gave me some food for thought.  At all
 events, these occasions slowly made me acquainted with the man and the
 movement, which in those days guided Vienna's destinies: Dr. Karl
 Lueger and the Christian Social Party."
          [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 2]

"...the unprecedented rise of the Christian Social Party... was to
 assume the deepest significance for me as a classical object of study."
        [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

"Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy
enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing
heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this
time."
         [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 5]

"For this, to be sure, from the child's primer down to the last newspaper,
 every theater and every movie house, every advertising pillar and every
 billboard, must be pressed into the service of this one great mission,
 until the timorous prayer of our present parlor patriots: 'Lord, make us
 free!' is transformed in the brain of the smallest boy into the burning
 plea: 'Almighty God, bless our arms when the time comes; be just as thou
 hast always been; judge now whether we be deserving of freedom; Lord,
 bless our battle!'
      [Adolf Hitler's prayer, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 2 Chapter 13]


etc..

--
##   Thore Bjerklund Karlsen   #--/\--#  Looks like I picked the wrong   ##
## , home.sn.no/~tbk/ #-//\\-#   week to quit amphetamines..    ##
##-----------------------------------------------------------------------##
##      "Man has always sacrificed truth to his vanity, comfort and      ##
##      advantage. He lives by makebelieve."  (W. Somerset Maugham)      ##





+ - Re: Szalai's righteousness :-) - (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 07:57 PM 6/23/97 -0400, "Amos J. Danube" wrote:

<snip>
>This is the last I will say  re. these issues.  I have wasted  way too
>much time on the two of you.
>                              Amos

I'll miss you, Amos.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: (Fwd) Re: (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:50 PM 6/24/97 GMT, Eva Durant wrote:

>Eva B. called me or Joe stupid, as we suggested, that
>Hitler called himself a christian.  It is my dismal duty
>to inform her - she is wrong - again.
>So - if you call him socialist, you have to call him
>a christian, too, I'm afraid.
>(I have to spell it out these days, for the sake of some.)
>
>
>"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator.
> By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work."
>           [Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936]

Etc., etc., etc., etc..

Good one, Eva!  Unfortunately, I don't think Eva Balogh will recant.

Also, I don't know why she thinks that you and I are stupid.  Our ideas are
different from her's, but surely, that doesn't make us stupid.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Whiners (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 01:12 PM 6/20/97 -0400, Eva Balogh wrote:

>        Just to add my two cents' worth to the discussion on living
>standards. If you look at the statistics: living standards are down.
>But--and this is an important but--economic statistics are terribly
>unreliable nowadays for at least two reasons: (1) a huge black/grey economy;
>(2) the central statistical office has little experience in gathering data
>in a fluid capitalist economy.
>        There is a portion of the population--mostly pensioners, people with
>little education and/or unemployed--who are poor by any standard. According
>to polls, only 15-20 percent of the population claims that they are better
>off financially today than in the existing socialism but I wouldn't take
>this kind of figure too seriously: there is a tendency in all of us to see
>the past through rose-colored glasses.

And then Eva Balogh gives us the details of the "tales of woe from a man in
his thirties about their poverty".  According to Eva Balogh:

 .both he and his wife worked in the health field
 .they were building a new house
 .the house would be admired in the US
 .house has large, modern kitchen
 .dining room, living room
 .examination room for wife's business
 .three bedrooms, two baths
 .two cars, two car garage
 .have two kids and make 40,000 Ft. in toto.

Eva Balogh tells us this to let us know that not everyone who claims to be
poor is poor.  But we all know that!  Did she for a moment believe that
they were?  And why does she really want to share this information with us.
 I think what she's trying to do is to dismiss the notion of poverty
altogether.  Oh sure, she mentions that some people are poor by any
standard, but she spends most of her time, and most of the time, telling us
of cheats and dishonest people.  ("Methinks the lady projects too much!")
She's grandstanding with her "example" of the "poor" couple.  And I think
she does all this to undermine social programmes for the less fortunate.
After all, if she can convince you that poor people have two cars, new
homes, etc., etc., you won't be too concerned about them.  And, for comming
to your senses, you get to keep more of your taxes.  And the others be damned!

Joe Szalai

"Poverty is an anomaly to rich people. It is very difficult to make out why
people who want dinner do not ring the bell."
            -- Walter Bagehot
+ - Re: Szalai's righteousness :-) - (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 02:56 PM 6/24/97 -0400, Eva Balogh wrote:

>At 11:06 AM 6/24/97 -0400, Jeliko wrote:
>
>>In my opinion, the political spectrum is in the shape of a circle. At the
top
>>of the circle is an ideal democracy (where probably no country resides at
the
>>present time) and at the bottom right next to each other separated by an
>>inperceptable distance, resides the far right and the far left.
>
>        And because it is a circle, they meet. Quite!

Eva Balogh takes that concept literally.  Well, there's not much I can say
to top that.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Szalai's righteousness :-) - (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Amos writes  (parts deleted):


>I have wondered for some time now why you like to make a fool of your-
>self publicly? Everything you say (write) is embarrassingly wrong, but
>this doesn't seem to faze you.  You pretend to know  so much about the
>States, but every word of yours proves otherwise. In most cases giving
>is done anonymously in this country.
>As for respect, I have nothing to worry about. You, however, may go on
>and worry about such things.
>This is the last I will say  re. these issues.  I have wasted  way too
>much time on the two of you.


I got back home and read a good number of the postings that accumulated. Wow!
It looks like that my decision not to auto delete messages from Ms Durant and
Mr Szalai was not such a bad idea. I have no issue with their right to post it
just as I did not believe in censorship of the other side.

The whole story reminds me of a part out of Arthur Koestler autobiography. Near
the time when the Nazis were becoming powerful in Germany he lived there (and
was still an underground communist agent) he picked up a girl and when they had
sex at the climax she struck her hand out and yelled Heil Hitler. It was the
time
when Koestler decided that it was time to leave Germany. The story shows what
happens to "true believers", regardless of the left or right persuasion.
After a
while everything revolves around the theme of their closed mind. At that point,
there is not much room for reason and fair discussion.

In my opinion, the political spectrum is in the shape of a circle. At the top
of the circle is an ideal democracy (where probably no country resides at the
present time) and at the bottom right next to each other separated by an
inperceptable distance, resides the far right and the far left. Maybe the
uniform colors and the party flags are different, the mentality is not. One
of the things they both crave is an audience for their propaganda which taints
every single one of their thought. The denizens of this bottom circle often are
failures also at one thing or another in their life and have a good dose of
resentment and an underlying inferiority complex which is observable in
their propaganda by a constant harping about the superiority of their thought.
They are convinced that all others who look at things differently are wrong and
they are the only ones who are right. They also have a burning desire to get
into
power so they can show by force that others are wrong and finally inferior
to themselves.

They also, generally, speak in the name of various percieved classes, with whom
they have very little contact or any respect for them. They claim that they are
too important to be involved in physical work (or often any serious work)
because
their duty to humanity is to embrace the world and lead it to whatever cause's
success, which would put them in power.

Somehow, I came to the conclusion, that I did not miss much in the past few
weeks.

Regards,Jeliko
+ - Re: Voting Intentions in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 08:36 AM 6/24/97 -0400, Barnabas Bozoki wrote:

>Don't feel bad Joe, "real people" left this list long time ago because
>they can't stand the tiresome insults from Eva Balogh.

        Why didn't you leave also? ESB
+ - Re: Szalai's righteousness :-) - (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:06 AM 6/24/97 -0400, Jeliko wrote:

>In my opinion, the political spectrum is in the shape of a circle. At the top
>of the circle is an ideal democracy (where probably no country resides at the
>present time) and at the bottom right next to each other separated by an
>inperceptable distance, resides the far right and the far left.

        And because it is a circle, they meet. Quite! Did you notice how
Barna Bozoki of more or less right persuasion ran to the assistance of our
left-winger Joe Szalai? Or, when the vice-president of the Munkaspart showed
up on the former Forum and people of the liberal persuasion expressed their
strong opposition to proletarian dictatorship or state ownership in no
uncertain terms, the right-wingers immediately expressed their great
admiration for our young vice-president who had, unlike all those others,
remained true to their beliefs. They became very friendly with him. He was
sending them books and they expressed their admiration for his ideas on
"true" democracy as opposed to this terrible existing one. And, of course,
both sides consider us who are in the middle of the two sides of that circle
the real enemies. Because, you see, they both hate *bourgeois* democracy and
capitalism. ESB
+ - Re: (Fwd) Re: (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Eva Durant,

        I don't care how many quotations you have fished out of Mein Kampf
which happens to mention the Almighty God, but national socialism and
Hitler's Germany was against the churches.

        ESB
+ - Kossuth in N.America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

A patriot ? an internationalist ? a military leader and revolutionary ? a
peacemaker ?  futurist ?   historian ?  All of the above ? (and more) 

Visit our newest addition to http://mineral.umd.edu/hungary/kossuth/  and
peruse excerpts from 48 Kossuth speeches delivered in the USA in 1851 and
1852.    Andy.   
A.J. Vadasz
5743 Pignut Mtn. Dr.
Warrenton VA 20187
USA T:540 349 1408
+ - Kossuth in N.America (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

A patriot ? an internationalist ? a military leader and revolutionary ? a
peacemaker ?  futurist ?   historian ?  All of the above ? (and more)

Visit our newest addition to http://mineral.umd.edu/hungary/kossuth/  and
peruse excerpts from 48 Kossuth speeches delivered in the USA in 1851 and
1852.    Andy.
A.J. Vadasz
5743 Pignut Mtn. Dr.
Warrenton VA 20187
USA T:540 349 1408

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