At 03:57 PM 1/10/97 -0500, Ferenc Novak wrote:

>Gabor, could you tell us something about the situation there?  I think I am
>not alone in being interested.  Thanks.

I arrived there shortly after the second round of presidential elections.
Iliescu and his party were thrown out by the voters and an apparently
democratic government was elected (although in the coalition they had the
party of Petre Roman, who in 1990 had some very ugly manifestations in
Gyulafehervar/Alba Iulia - he was the prime minister later ousted by the
miners). People generally were very optimistic about the future, although
they all expected hard economic times (they were proven right, the price of
energy doubled recently and the inflation in January is expected to be 50% -
for one  month!). The new president, Emil Cosntantinescu is also a member of
the former opposition.

Funar is still the mayor of Kolozsvar/Cluj, although his own party was
talking about ousting him, due to their poor performance in the elections.

The participation of the RMDSZ (Democratic Alliance of Hungarians in
Romania) in the governing coalition seems to have very positive effects on
inter-ethnic and inter-governmental relations. There are two Hungarian
ministers in the Romanian government, several other high officers in various
ministries, a few heads and assistant heads of counties. The first visit
abroad by the new Romanian foreign minister (Adrian Severin) was to Hungary,
where among other things they agreed on re-opening of the Hungarian
consulate in Kolozsvar/Cluj and Romanian consulate in Debrecen. He was
promptly attacked for this by Funar, who claimed that the former Hungarian
consulate in Kolozsvar/Cluj (closed by Ceausescu) was a nest of spies.

The election campaign, for the first time since 1989, did not include any
Hungarian-bashing (except Iliescu's desperate attempt to get re-elected).
The RMDSZ ran a presidential candidate, Senator Gyorgy Frunda. He was very
popular, after the election being named the most popular politician in Romania.

The new government started a war against corruption. Two heads of the
defunct  bank Dacia felix were arrested for fraud, so was Miron Cosma, the
head of the miners who twice terrorized the population of Bucharest. A
corrupt army general was ousted. I hope they will keep it up.

The old guard was eliminated from the Romanian Television, the new guard was
trained at the BBC.

For those who read Hungarian, the local paper from Kolozsvar, called
Szabadsag (Freedom) is now available on the Internet at the following
address: http://www.hhrf.org/szabadsag/szamok.htm.

Please ask specific questions and I will try to answer them.

Gabor D. Farkas

PS. It is good to see the list back, I hope it will last (forever).

Lajos M... At 11:49 AM 09/01/97 +0100, you wrote:
in answer to >Istvan Lippai:- ak a Lipserver.hungary whoops, I meant ...
liptaeur.chesse.ofthe.90's:
>
>Mr. Lippai: I don't know you personally, I am much younger than you (I wa
>born in 1967), but I have one remark: from my experience those who loudly
>accuse communists and communism were in most cases closely linked to the
>past system. It seems they have a bad conscience and want to change their
>past. Maybe you are not one of them, but reading your postings I have this
>feeling.

Lajos ... You mean, that there really is something to be said for my
Grandmother's favorites statement being "Mindenki Magabol Indul Ki" (All,
come from within ... or something the like it in English ... I guess, that
I'll never get the translation absolute .... perhaps for about the 19th
time or so those with linguistic expertise could jump in with a tad of help)?

Regardless, thanks for re enforcing my original thoughts.  In my opinion,
Lippai is attempting to outsmart fate and karma all in one - by attempting
to pay for his sins prior to his death.  What do you think?  Could it work?
 For sure, I hope that whatever it is that drives him, he continues to do
so on the group.  I am getting ever so tired of receiving his nonsensical
and borderline abusive notes!  Hope you've been spared?

Regards,
Aniko - oops, almost forgot - "the tatatatata... "non hungarian" - as per
Lipservers instant judgement ... way back when, after reading one, post?

>
> At 09:24 AM 1/8/97 -0500, Peter Soltesz wrote:
> >I agree with Mr. Hidas' comment that if one had good grades one could get
> >into most Hungarian universities, refardless of social status.
>


I would comment, that at the present and for the last 20+
years you had to be a genius, and even than it was not
sure you get in to ELTE humanities/languages, law and
other popular courses, (such as mathmatician or physisist at TTK)
as there is oversubsciption - not enough
places.  Now there are "private universities" of uneven
quality for "choice" for those who can afford  and still
value higher education.

Joe:
Thanx for the update.
Peter

I was reading the messages to this list for sometime before I had an
opportunity to join in.

I would like to summarize my position and experiences with this list.

Inflammatory Language and Obscenities:

I noticed that when decent Hungarians posts messages that express a love of
country or acknowledgment of God, they could be viciously attacked by
pro-Communist, anti-Hungarian, anti-American garbage.  They would be labeled
super-nationalist, nazis, fascists, racists, etc.  They would be showered by
obscenities by the likes of Stowe.

Stowe sent me a private e-mail in response to my private e-mail.  My initial
e-mail contained no obscenity.  The subject of his e-mail 'Fuck you, you
Nazi!', was followed with a message of additional obscenities.  I do not wish
to have intercourse with this Stowe guy, and suggested that he approach his
mother instead.

The point I am trying to make is that Stowe and company pretend to be refined,
but when pressed, become more offensive and obscene than any ruffian from
Angyalfold.

What is communist garbage:

I believe that communist garbage is proper definition of people who harmed our
people under the darkest days of communist rule, and of people who try to
minimize the suffering of our people.  I thank God, that very few Hungarians
belong to this category.

I was careful not to condemn those who were forced to join the communist party
to get medical treatment for a sick child, or who were threatened with loss of
job, etc.  I have a special respect and admiration for those who were told to
join and refused, bringing hardship and misery on themselves and their loved
ones.

Private mail:

I believe that Peter Soltesz is a decent man, but we do not agree on the use
of private mail on the list.

Anyone posting a message to the list should expect to receive a public or
private response.  It seems that every other message I get is from Aniko
Dunford through the list.  I find little interest in her incoherent notes and
send suggestions and offers of help to improve her communication skills.  I
not take offense to her amusing attacks.  Keep it up Aniko and you will keep
getting my private encouragement.

I was offended by Eva Balogh quoting from my private e-mail out of context.
It is a lot more series than a 'violation of privacy' that I did not ask for.

I also send a lot of private mail to people to thank them for their support,
to clarify something that I believe was misunderstood, or to respond to
insults or obscenities.  This time, I am sending 5 letters of encouragement to
Aniko Dunford, a letter of clarification to Lajos Monoki, and 2 insults to
Mpflerr.

If it is private, the people involve in know that is private.

My Background:

I had no intention of talking about my background, but our self admitted
product of communist brood asked about my background on the list.  Yes, I am
proud of my heritage and grateful for the opportunity to make the most of my
life in the United States.

My Participation in the Szabadsagharc:

I had no intention of going into my activities during 1956.  I know that there
are thousands of Hungarians, living and dead, who have done far more than I,
during the Szabadsagharc.  I am proud to personally know some of them.  I
described my role as a freedom fighter in response to a challenge posted on
the list by draft dodger Stowe.

In conclusion, I will continue to keep my messages to the list to a minimum,
while using private e-mail as before.  If Stowe wants to continue exchanging
obscenities, I can do that also.

Istvan Lippai


----------
From:  Hungarian Discussion List on behalf of Peter A. Soltesz
Sent:  Wednesday, January 08, 1997 6:26 PM
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Good conduct is in the eyes of the beholder?

On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Eva S. Balogh wrote:
SNIPPETTY...
>
>         And finally and very seriously, if Mr. Lippai doesn't not stop this
> character assassination he may receive a letter from my lawyer.
>
>         Eva Balogh
>
Dear Eva:
I see that Mr. L has gotten under your skin. Too bad!. Let me say this at
least that no matter what transpired -- as they say in Hungarian
(translated) even a stopped clock is right twice a day! ---

BTW your "threat" is idle in that I do not think any lawyer (from Canada
no  less) would get involved in writing a letter [else it will cost lots
of CDN$].

I agree with Aniko that Mr. L should refrain from sending any more
personal "attack" letters and keep it on the BBS. Let us sniker, smile,
laugh, o whatever......in public.

Regards,
Peter Soltesz

Curious,  you seem to take personal offense at the statement 'communists
kissed our proli asses'.

Are you upset because some those communists were your communist relatives?

or

Are you upset because we turned the table on your comrades?

Lippai

----------
From:  Hungarian Discussion List on behalf of Joe Szalai
Sent:  Thursday, January 09, 1997 5:32 AM
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: Was he?  Response to the comrades.

At 03:30 PM 1/7/97 UT, Istvan Lippai wrote:

<snip>
>I assume more than half of students had similar backgrounds.  Indeed, the
>communists kissed our 'proli' asses.

You should have savoured those moments.  Since then, it's been *you* who's
been kissing asses.

Joe Szalai

"No more painters, no more scribblers, no more musicians, no more sculptors,
no more religions, no more royalists, no more radicals, no more
imperialists, no more anarchists, no more socialists, no more communists, no
more proletariat, no more democrats, no more republicans, no more bourgeois,
no more aristocrats, no more arms, no more police, no more nations, an end
at last to all this stupidity, nothing left, nothing at all, nothing,
nothing."
          Louis Aragon

At 08:26 PM 1/8/97 -0500, Peter Soltesz wrote:

>BTW your [Eva Balogh's] "threat" [of sending a lawyer after Mr. Lippai] is
idle in that I do not think any lawyer (from Canada
>no  less) would get involved in writing a letter [else it will cost lots
>of CDN$].

        Where on earth do you get an idea that I have to go to Canada to get
a lawyer. I happen to be living in the United States and so does Mr. Lippai.
Second, I don't make *idle threats.* You seem to forget about my background.
I have more influential lawyer friends than I can count.
        Eva Balogh

On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Eva S. Balogh wrote:

> At 09:24 AM 1/8/97 -0500, Peter Soltesz wrote:
> >I agree with Mr. Hidas' comment that if one had good grades one could get
> >into most Hungarian universities, refardless of social status.
>
>         Hmm, hmm, this is somewhat misleading. This was definitely not the
> case. I almost didn't get into gymnasium because of my social origin.
<SNIP>
Dear Eva:
The fact was/is that IF you had an n "A" average then most doors were in
fact open to those who wanted to continue with their education REGARDLESS
of their social status.
Regards
Peter

At 03:00 PM 1/7/97 -0500, Janos Zsargo wrote:

>>An earlier
>>"compromise" with Vienna could have accelerated Hungarian economic
>>development and with that the natural assimilation could have begun earlier
>>(see other, better developed countries in western Europe). Under natural
>>assimilation I mean the kind which is inevitable with urbanization and
>>greater mobility. There were several possibilities for such compromise but
>>none were taken.
>
>I am not sure that I clearly understand this. Would you mind being a little
>bit more specific?
>Especially I don't see how an accelerated industrialization and *assimilation*
>could have prevented WWI and its consequences on Hungary.

        I don't understand what you don't understand. From the eighteenth
century on the Hungarian nobility's (the political elite, using a modern
term) refusal to pay taxes made Vienna to adopt an economic policy
disadvantagous to Hungary. Thus, Hungary, behind the western parts of the
empire already, became even more economically backward. With economic
development natural assimilation becomes accelerated because there will be
greater urbanization and building vital infrastructure. Thus, with an
earlier "compromise" the number of non-Hungarian speakers would have been
much smaller. Hungary would have still lost the war but her territorial
losses would have been more likely smaller. Simple.

>This is funny. If 1848 had succeed and a relativly strong Hungary
>had been kept together by Kossuth till the outbreak of an all-out
>conflict between Germany and France/England, this Hungary would have
>been on the Anglo-French side and hence a victor at the end.

        You just happen to forget about one *small* problem. The non-Magyar
speakers didn't want to live in a country which Kossuth and his fellow
Hungarians envisaged. They rose against it.

>Eva, please, don't use such cheap shots. You are not S.Stowe who believes
>WWI was fought for archdukes and moral issues. That conflict was inevitable
>by that time and Austro-Hungary was tied to Germany by military trieties. It
>is just a couriosity that the actual cause for WWI was related to Austro-
>Hungary.

        Sam Stowe already answered that. Indeed, the way you put it here
gives the impression that poor Austria-Hungary was dragged into the war by
Germany. It was the other way around. Or rather, due to the Kaiser's
stupidity he agreed to support Austria-Hungary although the attack on Serbia
didn't oblige Germany to come to Austria-Hungary's aid. Doesn't matter how
to slice it, Austria-Hungary started the First World War by attacking Serbia.

        Eva Balogh

On Tue, 14 Jan 1997, Istvan Lippai wrote:

> Curious,  you seem to take personal offense at the statement 'communists
> kissed our proli asses'.
>
> Are you upset because some those communists were your communist relatives?
>
> or
>
> Are you upset because we turned the table on your comrades?

Neither.  Besides, you're incapable of personally offending me.  Actually,
I'm not opposed to kissing ass, per se.  However the ass should be
nice, round and firm.  This is where you fall flat, Lippai Ur.

Joe Szalai

At 09:57 AM 1/9/97 +1000, George Antony wrote:
>A while back the setup of the HUNGARY list was changed so that only subscriber
s
>could mail a message through the list.  This was to keep out sundry hawkers
>and loonies using mail servers for inappropriate purposes.
>
>Opening the gateways to bit.listserv.hungary and soc.culture.magyar has
>all but wiped out this protection and we are once again subjected to such
>material.
>
>Experts, please, is there anything that could be done ?

        I would like to second this request. I remember rather vividly
almost three years ago that there was a discussion on whether HUNGARY should
be open to the "public," so to speak. Most of the discussion at this point
went above my head, but I do remember there were several people on the list
who were not in favor opening the gateways to bit.listserv.hungary and
soc.culture.magyar. I am almost certain that the arrival of a maniac
prompted everybody to send so many messages that the whole system got
clogged up. There is no benefit really in these discussions whatsoever.

        Maybe we should reexamine the state of the list.

        Eva Balogh

My dear-dear friends,

It is getting to be better and better.  Let me state it again, this is not
Hungary under communist rule.  I can hardly wait for the multitude of Eva's
influential lawyers to haul me into court.  How do you sue someone for
defamation of character, after you call that person garbage and maniac?  Did
you ever hear of a counter-suit?

Is there a saying that if you come before Caesar for justice, you should have
clean friends.  Help me out my learned friends of history and literature.

And to think that I considered her intelligent.  It just shows how little I
know.

You all have a wonderful day, and write me real soon.

Istvan

----------
From:  Hungarian Discussion List on behalf of Eva S. Balogh
Sent:  Tuesday, January 14, 1997 8:25 AM
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Eva Balogh is full of idle threats and hot air

At 08:26 PM 1/8/97 -0500, Peter Soltesz wrote:

>BTW your [Eva Balogh's] "threat" [of sending a lawyer after Mr. Lippai] is
idle in that I do not think any lawyer (from Canada
>no  less) would get involved in writing a letter [else it will cost lots
>of CDN$].

        Where on earth do you get an idea that I have to go to Canada to get
a lawyer. I happen to be living in the United States and so does Mr. Lippai.
Second, I don't make *idle threats.* You seem to forget about my background.
I have more influential lawyer friends than I can count.
        Eva Balogh

At 10:29 AM 1/14/97 -0500, Peter Soltesz wrote:
>On Wed, 8 Jan 1997, Eva S. Balogh wrote:
>
>> At 09:24 AM 1/8/97 -0500, Peter Soltesz wrote:
>> >I agree with Mr. Hidas' comment that if one had good grades one could get
>> >into most Hungarian universities, refardless of social status.
>>
>>         Hmm, hmm, this is somewhat misleading. This was definitely not the
>> case. I almost didn't get into gymnasium because of my social origin.
><SNIP>
>Dear Eva:
>The fact was/is that IF you had an n "A" average then most doors were in
>fact open to those who wanted to continue with their education REGARDLESS
>of their social status.

        You don't know what you are talking about. In Rakosi's Hungary this
was certainly not so. It wasn't even so in the earlier days of Kadar's
Hungary. I am not sure the exact date, but it was sometime in the late 1960s
that the quota system was abolished and students were admitted to
university, more or less, on merit.

        Eva Balogh

The following is from Jeffrey Hogrefe "O'Keeffee, The Life of an American
Legend"

"The farm Frank O'Keeffee worked was owned by Isabella Wyckoff Totto. Born
in New York into an old family that traced its roots to Dutch and English
colonists, Isabella Wyckoff had been orphaned as a young girl shortly after
her family arrived in frontier Wisconsin. Penniless - and judging from the
few pictures, so unfortunate looking she probably had a difficult time
attracting suitors - Isabella was eventually married to an older man, a
Hungarian count named George Victor Totto, who was something of a rake.

George established his family, which soon came to number six children, on a
working farm in Sun Prairie, only to abandon Isabella and their offspring
when he returned to Hungary and, by some accounts another wife and family...
Isabella too began to tell people she had been widowed - and she might as
well have been. Georgia's grandmother never received a letter from Count
Totto, although she clung to the belief that he would return one day - a
family secret that doubtless caused considerable damage to the hopes of
daughters and sons who believed in this illusion.

Out of the six Totto children, only one (Ida) would marry..  to tenant
farmer Frank O'Keeffee on Feb 19, 1884....

Moving with Frank into the pretentious, flat roofed Totto farmhouse, whose
Hungarian-style turret and ornament contrasted with the plain white
geometric boxes in the surrounding area....

On November 15, 1887 Georgia Totto O'Keeffee was born..."

It looks like that Totto may have been an 1849 freedom fighter, who while
doing fairly well in Wisconsin returned to greener pastures after the
Ausgleich. I have never heard of Totto's in Hungary. Did anyone else?

To those artistically challanged, Georgia (Totto) O'Keeffee was a famous
American painter.

Regards,Jeliko

At 07:31 AM 1/9/97 -0500, Joe Szalaim writing to Agnes:

>>Also, I know quite a few friends who were imprisoned in 1957 for their
>>participation in the revolution - even those, who were only ideological
>>participants.
>
>Would you expect the state, any state, to act differently?

        Joe, as usual, goes overboard. A lo' ma'sik oldala'ra esik. By
considering every state equally evil, he bagatalizes a brutal,
terror-ridden, totalitarian regime which the early Kadar-regime was. Or,
even worse equates Stalinist Russia in the late 1930s with, let's say the
state of Canada.

        Eva Balogh

Peter Hidas writes:

>No. Please look at the construction, the grammar of the various language
>families. Vocabulary only indicates possible contacts amongst peoples.
>
There are other than solely vocabulary related similarities between Turkish
(and other Ural Altaic languages) and the Finno-Ugric subcategory languages.
Naturally, the similarites have to be treated with the understanding of when
the various speakers have lived together. As an example, agglutination is
common to both. Considering the complexity of linguistics, I am always
surprised by the seemingly categorical nos and yeses in this field.

Regards,Jeliko.

In a message dated 97-01-13 18:39:16 EST,  (Lajos MONOKI)
writes:

> >I agree with Mr. Hidas' comment that if one had good grades one could get
>  >into most Hungarian universities, refardless of social status.
>
>  But if one had "good" social status, one could get into most Hungarian
>  universities, regardless of grades. Sometimes even in place of one, who
had
>  good grades but "bad" social status:(
>
>  Lajos Monoki

Lajos, I can validate your statement based on my personal experiences!

Marina

Eva Balogh sugests that I do not know what I am talking about.
Well when I was in Hungary till end of 1956, I had known many peopel
who were non-communists, poor and still managed to attend higher
exuducation because they had outstanding grades.
Peter