- If Hungary attempts to refuse/rescedule/question the
  payments of the debts, there will be no more credit
  and will be bankrupt;

- If Hungary attempts to keep up payments to stay in the
   good books, it has to cut public expenditure to such
   levels that is not sufficient to keep public services
   such as health and education running and there is a
   chance to public order to break down - such as in Russia.

so far the solution was to cut public expenditure  and
to borrow even more, making the interest payments bigger
all the time  - as to avoid the choice above.

Hungary is not unique in this/similar predicament. But why
should we consider the fundamental flaws of the system?
 - let's just wait, perhaps it won't blow up. It always
did eventually in the past, but it is different now...

>
> This was probably intended by Chomsky as a dire warning, but perhaps in
> this case it is Chomsky who is suffering from first-world tunnel vision.
> Mexico may seem like the epitome of backwardness for Chomsky, but for
> much of Eastern Europe it would be a step up to rise to Mexican standards.
> I am not sure if Chomsky is even aware that Mexico's per capita GNP is
> already 17% higher than Hungary's, and life expectancy in Mexico is also
> higher.  Hungary is still just a tad ahead of Brazil on those same
> statistics, but Brazil is catching up fast.
>

Could we have these statistics please, comparing Mexico and
Hungary in more detail?
I have my doubts about the size of the GNP as a measure
of much. US GNP is higher, than UK's, but I think it
is marginally more bearable to be poor here...
(Though the poor did a bit better here 15 years
ago, when the GNP was even lower...)
I don't think many Hungarian poor would change to
the position of landless peasants the Zapatists are on
about if I remember correctly, or the slum-dwellers
of Mexico City. The bigger the GNP, the bigger the
share of the owner class, the size of poverty can
be out of proportion...  With a prosperous middleclass/
intelligencia periodically, which numerically quite
different than in Hungary.
I would aim for something better...

The above is MY eyewitness testimony
- and at least twelve of YOU (but ultimately, many hundreds of milions
of people, called HISTORY [not some clearly biased historians])
are the judge.

:Your testimony as a participant in the events of 1956 is important for
 historians but it is not history. What could one person see at any given time?
 You saw
one thing, Ms. Balogh saw something. The participants have their view of events
witnessed but it is the trained historian that will tell the whole history.
History is not what happened but what historians write. Events can be very
 confusing for the participants. For example, The Gero speech of October 23 was
understood by most Hungarians as an insult, where Gero called the people on
the streets of Budapest "Fascists". However, if you read the speech itself otda
y
 you will notice that no such offence was committed.

On the socialist character of the Revolution. The students who attacked the
 Rjadio on October 23 took the 16 points of the Engineering Faculty students to
the director of the Hungarian Radio vias a delegation. The students demanded
that Imre Nagy be allowed to address the people of Hungary. Read the demands
again and you will see clearly that it repesented the views of patriots and
democratic socialists. Did the people of Hungary at the time agreed with these
demands? Some did, some did not. There is no way of telling today what the
people thought in 1956. All we know for sure that was published in the papers
at the time, historians write and our unreliable memory dictate us.

Let us celebrate 1956 by telling the truth about it, discover the truth
about it and undestanding it.

Peter I. Hidas, Montreal

Peter I. Hidas wrote:

: There is no way of telling today what the
: people thought in 1956. All we know for sure that was published in the papers
: at the time, historians write and our unreliable memory dictate us.

Isn't that rather strong?  Aren't diaries and private letters of some use?


--Greg Grose

Mr. Pellionisz's knowledge of geography is great indeed, when he says:

>I was not in the remote village of Pecs,
>I lived in Budapest in the dead center [Baross utca 105. III. em 19.]

The "remote village of Pecs" has a population of over 200,000, but even in
1956 it was well over 120,000. And it would have been fairly difficult to
live in this "remote village" and at the same time be a member of the
Budapest Revolutionary Student Council. I happened to be a third-year student
at the University of Budapest (ELTE) in 1956 and happened to live at Rakoczi
ut 5, at the corner of Kiskorut and Rakoczi ut, just where the first Soviet
tanks appeared in the early morning of October 24.

Eva Balogh

Gabor Fencsik wrote:

>The window for debt relief has closed long ago.  Especially debt relief
>..
>Over 33% of the outstanding debt has in fact been
>accumulated since 1990, and ...

due to imposed IMF policies, right?  That is the wrole point behind the
idea of the suit - that the IMF was irresponsible in it's actions causing
such financial disasters.

Maybe the opportunity for debt relief has gone, but the IMF needs to be held
accountable for it's actions.

I think Hungary should request debt relief, as well as sue, and the csae for
debt relief should include arguements that the IMF is significantly responsible
for our rising debt.  Though it will likely fail, the noise itself could
modify future actions of the IMF towards more sympathetic and even original
financial terms which would consider the suffereing of the poor, and the
welfare of the economies of the countries needing help, and not just the
welfare of the finances of the investors.

Paul Gelencser

Reply to:   RE>Remote village, remote revolutionary

Although the main concentartion of fighting accord in the streets of Budapest,
I could not let this message go without stating that my father was a freedom
fighter in Pecs; yes in this "village city". There were stories of going into
the Kossuth Lajos Army Barracks, which at the time was occupied by both
Hungarian and Soviet Forces, and stealing weapons. These weapons would make
there way to Budapest and other various cities throughout the country.
Additionally, road blocks to capture supplies, and fire fights that forced
many of the freedom fighters into the Mecsek mountains, only to return to the
city and disrupt the daily activities of the opposing forces was routine for
these "village men".  It is not important where you were during the
revolution, but to have been apart of this dangerous time in Hungarian
history; either physically or mentally. My clsoing comment would be, that we
should remember all those who fought for what they believed in, especially
those who died, they are the true heros we should remember.

--------------------------------------
Date: 9/14/95 9:44 AM
To: Peter Gyenis
From: Hungarian Discussion List
Mr. Pellionisz's knowledge of geography is great indeed, when he says:

>I was not in the remote village of Pecs,
>I lived in Budapest in the dead center [Baross utca 105. III. em 19.]

The "remote village of Pecs" has a population of over 200,000, but even in
1956 it was well over 120,000. And it would have been fairly difficult to
live in this "remote village" and at the same time be a member of the
Budapest Revolutionary Student Council. I happened to be a third-year student
at the University of Budapest (ELTE) in 1956 and happened to live at Rakoczi
ut 5, at the corner of Kiskorut and Rakoczi ut, just where the first Soviet
tanks appeared in the early morning of October 24.

Eva Balogh

: There is no way of telling today what the
: people thought in 1956. All we know for sure that was published in the papers
: at the time, historians write and our unreliable memory dictate us.

Isn't that rather strong?  Aren't diaries and private letters of some use?

Of course. Unfortunately, there are very few of those available today.
 PresentlyI am working on the history of the Hungarian Refugee Movement of 1956
 and Canada. I have not been able to acquire a single diary from Canadian
 56-ers.
Sincerely,
Peter I. Hidas, Montreal

As predicted, some rather typical character around here
uncomfortably sways his position in the debate -- except for his
obvious weakness (most likely, beyond repair) for "ad hominem"
attacks in lieu of fair arguments. I quoted Prof. Chomsky's perfect
prediction of East Europe's Bankloan-Slavery precisely for reasons of
demonstrating for the reader that for some shabby fabrication
sweatshop, let's call the outfit Fencsix, Inc., one does not have to be a
"mucsai" [hillbilly] out of Hodmezovasarhely [meaning Dr. Endrey] to
be target of pitiful attempts of ridicule, instead of seriously debated.
You could easily be an MIT Professor (that Dr. Chomsky is). In fact, I
predict his target of (self) ridicule can also be a Harvard Professor
(Jeffry Sachs). Frankly, I would not even be surprised if Fencsix, Inc.
would branch into ridiculing the Holy Crown of Hungary, that of our
first Apostolic King Saint Stephen.

It is too bad that some weaklings who pretend to be top experts of
Hungarian matters apparently don't even speak our language (or
perhaps just would not dare coming over to "Forum" to debate some
issues "one-on-one"). "Mexico/Burundi" as goals for Hungary have
been amply debated there. Fencsix, Inc. is a rather belated entry into
the market of championing Hungary as a "New Kid in the Block" of
impoverished Third World Countries. No wonder, the tardy
sweatshop rushes to the market with defective products -- there is a
glaring error in ridiculing Bulgaria, for instance, for her way of
handling the IMF debt. The Corporation [Hazudozo es Cikizo Intezet]
would be surprised to learn, that Bulgaria already wrote off about
half
of its IMF debt, perhaps because that country is so famous for
"financial wizards" and "pseudo Nobel Laurates" in economy/
international finance. Poland, of course, halved TWICE her IMF-debt
as we all know except some sweatshops which are too busy
fabricating sleaze to leave any time for learning facts. "Oh, sure, but
Poland has an extremely strong Western arm of emigres!" Indeed?
The Polish lobby probably pales then in comparison with the "huge
Albanian representation" in US Congress :-), as Albania wrote off 80%
of her IMF-debt, and not in the "missed window of opportunity" of
1989-1990, but as recently as a few months ago!  As for the
"reluctance" of MDF to touch the tabu of IMF-debt thereafter, we
must know that the same Mr. Suranyi was Pres. of the Hungarian
National [Reserve] Bank in early Antall-years who as of today with
the Finance Minister subserve IMF. Mr. Suranyi is known to have
called back from the Airport Antall's man who was boarding the
plane to D.C. to ask for IMF rescheduling!

Perhaps the most interesting is the slant that one cannot at the same
time use negative influence (lawsuit for damages) and positive
influence (claiming 1956 as services rendered amounting 1% of the
cost of defeating communism) towards achieving one and the same
goal (of IMF write-off). Apparently there are still some who never
heard of the "stick AND carrot" approach. Those who don't know
about such basic stuff will never know that neither the legal
challenge nor the 1956 revolution argument is to be administered
directly to the International Monolith of Finance. IMF will have to
face NOT Hungary, but the LAW when it comes to lawsuit. Also, while
IMF would never bother even to hear the case of 1956 Hungarian
Antibolsevist Revolution, some USA CONGRESS would be sympathetic.
Oh, not EVERY Congress, certainly not a liberal Congress!  PRESENTLY
HOWEVER (since January) BOTH HOUSES ARE CONTROLLED BY THE
CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICANS WHO FIERCELY ATTACK, AND
DISASSEMBLE AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE, POWER MECHANISMS OF
LIBERALS. IMF is controlled "democratically", as a (not strictly linear
:-) function of the amount of money member countries are
contributing. USA contributes by far the most, and EVERY SINGLE
CENT OF CONTRIBUTION TO IMF MUST BE APPROVED BY THE USA
(CONSERVATIVE) CONGRESS.

Finally, there is a point that one would love to publicly debate if
there were a serious responsible partner on the other side.  Some-
body (?) risks the following statement: "The window for debt relief
has closed long ago.  Especially debt relief based on a perceived
obligation to repay services rendered during the Cold War.  It is
useless to harp on this now."  Very interesting!  Does it also mean
that we must render useless for some nation to harp on financial
compensation for "bad services rendered to them", say, 50 years ago?

My namesake, Eva Durant, asks:

>How can an intelligent and caring
>person "fervently" believe in this system [capitalism] and not
>searching for better options?

I guess I am neither intelligent nor caring! I don't believe that there is a
better option, but if there is, it ain't socialism a la Marx and Engels.

Eva Balogh

Dear Colleauges,

In less than two weeks, Clinton will meet with Iliescu in the White House.
This is a great opportunity for the Hungarian Lobby to influence Mr.
Clinton's positions during these discussions. I would like to ask you to send
E-Mail messages to Bill Clinton. To assist you in that, I am attaching a few
points you might consider to include in your letter:

E-Mail Address: 

Dear Mr. President,

1.64 million Hungarian Americans are looking forward, with High expectations,
to your meetings with president Iliescu of Romania. We hope that in your
meetings you will find an opportunity to request the following from him:

1) Restoration of Hungarian autonomy in Transylvania:
We agree with your recommendation for Bosnia, which would guarantee autonomy
for all the warring groups. Similarly to that approach, we feel that it is
high time to restore this same autonomy to Europe's largest minority, the
Hungarians of Transylvania, who's numbers exceed the TOTAL POPULATION OF
BOSNIA. This autonomy was guaranteed by the Great Powers in 1920, again in
1946, it survived even under Communist rule and in 1993 it has been again
recommended by the European Parliament, in their resolution 1201.

2) Rescinding the "Language Law" of 1995:
This law destroys the 500 years old Hungarian school system and  subjects the
2.5 million Hungarian minority to cultural genocide. By treating language and
culture as a police matter, Romania is being converted from a multi-ethnic
federation into an intolerant nation-state.

3) Equal privatization for all:
The properties of Hungarian individuals and churches should be returned.
There should be no discrimination in favor of Romanians.

4) Stop the "Culture Police":
The Hungarian language TV, radio and press should be restored.

5) Recall Ambassador Moses:
Lastly, we feel, that Mr. Moses has compromised the high standards of
American diplomacy. His comparing Bishop Laszlo Tokes, the hero of the 1989
anti-Ceaucescu Revolution to a racist fanatic was inexcuseable.

Respectfully yours,
Name, address, title

Dr Pellionisz thinks he can petition the US Congress for debt relief,
while at the same time suing the IMF for malpractice, jaywalking,
gnostic turpitude, and whatever else Dr Endrey might dream up.

Dr Pellionisz calls this the "stick and carrot" approach.  This may well
be (although "carrot and stick" would roll off the tongue much nicer),
but first you need to tell us what is the "carrot", and what is the
"stick".  Sometimes it is difficult to tell them apart, you know.

The lawsuit is not a stick.  It is not even a wet noodle.  Last time we
checked, you were still trying to work out the difference between
original jurisdiction, and appellate jurisdiction.  That homework was
due a week ago, and we have not seen any progress at all.  Dr Endrey
does not seem to be any help.  Maybe it is time to start looking for a
real lawyer.  One who has been admitted to the Supreme Court bar would
be ideal.

Dr Pellionisz is also confused as to the power and inclinations of the
US Congress.  The Congress cannot forgive Hungary's loans, because they
are not owed to the United States.  All Congress can do, were it
inclined to do so, is to hand Hungary an outright grant to cover
Hungary's debts.  If you think the Republican Congress is looking for
new foreign aid recipients, then you are in for more disappointment.
The Republican Congress is not doing anything of the sort.  Congress is
busy cutting foreign aid whenever and wherever it can.  At least this
is what the -- admittedly liberal -- media would have us believe.

-----
Gabor Fencsik

Hi,

Can someone tell me if there is a Hungarian restaurant in Paris ?
I will visit Paris with my girl friend and I would like to take her
in a Hungarian resto. I do remember that in 1988 there was a resto
called "Paprika" but I have forgotten its address.

I will welcome also some unusual address.
( Exclude Pigalle ... )

Thanks for your help,   ANDRAS




Szevasztok,

Megtudna valaki mondani nekem ha letezik egy magyar etterem Parizsban ?
A baratnommel elmegyek oktoberben oda es elszeretnem vinni ot egy igazi
magyar etterembe. Emlekszem hogy 1998 volt egy etterem amit "Paprikanak"
hivtak de elfelejtettem a cimet.

Ha van nehany jo mas cimetek akkor kuldjetek el nekem !
( Kiveve a Pigalle-t ... )

Koszonom a segitseget,  ANDRAS




Salut,

Peut quelqu'un me dire s'il existe un resto hongrois a Paris? Je vais visiter
Paris avec ma copine en octobre et j'aimerais l'amener dans un vrai resto
hongrois. En 1988 j'ai ete dans un resto qui s'appelait "Paprika" mais j'ai
oublie son adresse.

Si tu connais des adresses bizarres n'oulies pas de me les envoyer !
( Sauf Pigalle ... )

Merci de votre aide,    ANDRAS

[Gy. Bathory placed a very interesting set of documents on the
web at the site of
http://hix.mit.edu/cgi-bin/ekezet.html/hix/hixcore/senddoc/new/IMF.Z
The following is a teaser from that selection. A. Pellionisz]
-----
1994-04-08 --    IMF monolith perpetuates third world poverty
The Bucknellian, Volume 113, Number 08

By John Stith
Bucknellian Columnist

"Dear Mr. Stith,

"Congratulations! We are able to grant you financial aid for the coming
year, provided you follow the following stipulations:

"First, you must spend more time doing part-time jobs and less time
studying. Second, you must stop eating chocolate-it is bad for you, and
increases the chances of your needing the Student Health Service. You
should only be visiting the Health Service when you are very sick
anyway.

"Next, you must promise to have no more than two children as an adult.
If you have any children currently (or any elderly parents), you should
find someone else to care for them so you can work. You must attend all
campus lectures on neo-classical economics. We also insist that you
repay all money borrowed from your parents. If you don't have enough
savings to do so, try borrowing (or stealing) from your friends.

By the way, we completely understand if you want to spend some of your
financial aid to buy a few guns. Our campus is a dangerous place.

=46inally, most of our aid will be loans, not grants. This is why we
stipulate that you must earn as much money as you can, as soon as
possible, rather than spending too much time on learning. We allow no
appeals concerning your aid. Don't worry: we will take care of you.

Sincerely, the Bucknell Financial Aid Office."

=46irst, my apologies to Financial Aid; they obviously didn't write this
letter. I created it to explain a system so complicated and secretive
that most Americans don't know much about it. This is the system that
helps to keep billions of people worldwide poor, uneducated, sick, and
in debt. This is international finance, and its paternalistic player is
the International Monetary Fund (IMF).

Many of us believe the myth that wealthy nations are doing what they can
to help the Third World. Yet the situation in Latin America, sub-Saharan
Africa, and much of Asia is just as bad as it was 50 years ago when the
World Bank and the IMF were created by the Allied powers. When we look
at how the IMF "helps" the Third World, we see a big part of the
problem.

Most Third World nations have a large debt. (That's nothing new-so does
the United States!) Paying the interest on this debt is such a problem
that the nations must continue to borrow money through the IMF. Every
few years the IMF sits down with indebted nations and says, "Sure, w=E9ll
lend you some more money so you can make your interest payments. But
there are some stipulations." These stipulations are called "structural
adjustment programs." The borrowing nation must go through "structural
adjustment" or else be shunned by the international community as a
troublemaker who won't pay up.

"Structural adjustment" commonly includes privatization of industries;
reductions in funding for schools, hospitals, and housing; increases in
taxes; opening of markets; and dozens of other more technical economic
changes. According to neo-classical economic theory, these changes will
create the most efficient world system. Never mind that peasants won't
have a school to go to any longer. Never mind that so many changes in
such a short period often lead to violence and political chaos in
African nations. Never mind that Third World farmers will go hungry
because with free trade they are now expected to economically compete
with grain grown by machine in Kansas.

Never mind that these changes are being imposed from outside, by an IMF
controlled by First World nations looking for a profit. Never mind that
democracy in the Third World becomes useless when all the decision-
making is done in Washington, DC by the IMF. Third World dictators tend
to implement "structural adjustment" much better anyway.

What the IMF just doesn't understand is that a healthy, educated,
democratic Third World is best, not only for the poor but also for First
World banks. Unless the IMF stops messing up Third World societies,
these nations will never be able to pay back the banks' loans.

Our Congress, as a major source of IMF funds, has the power to change
this situation. The Environmental Defense Fund, Oxfam-America, Witness
=46or Peace, and 21 other U.S. organizations have joined together in the
"50 Years Is Enough" campaign. We demand reforms in the IMF lending
mechanism, including "public participation in the decision-making
process, revision of environmental protection policy, consultation with
indigenous peoples, and examination of societal impact of structural
adjustment programs."

You know how to run your life better than the Financial Aid Office. Let
us recognize that democratic Third World nations know better than the
IMF.
-----

ToZSDENAPLo
  Oszbe fordult az ido. Az egen onszinu felhoket kerget a szel.
Nemsokara megindulnak a kukoricakombajnok. Ha azonban az idojaras
most potolja nyari csapadekadossagat, megnovekedett szemvesztesseggel
kell szamolni. Az esos talajon megcsuszo gepek akar 15 szazalekkal is
csokkenthetik a termeseredmenyt. Szerencsere boven van kukorica, az
1 millo 98 ezer hektaros teruleten mintegy 4 es fel millio tonna
termett. Ebbol 1 millio tonna kerulhet felvasarlasra, mintegy 200
ezer tonna pedig vetomag celjara. A megmaradt mennyiseg jo resze az
orvendetesen novekvo abtrakfogyaszto agazat takarmanyigenyet
szolgalja majd, es jut belole exportra is. Igaz, nem mindenhol.
  A kep tehat vegyes. De mit mond a piac, ha a tozsde tukrebe nezunk?
Nem kell kavezaccbol josolni, a szamok jelzik: az ujtermesu kukorica
fele fordul a spekulansok "forro" penze. Az oktoberi aru jegyzese=20
szeptemberben tonnankent 16800 forinton startolt, majd tartott
maradt. A honap elso 10 napjan azonban mar 13570 forintra emelkedett
a kurzus, kesobb 13850 forintra kuszott fel az arfolyam. Egy szep
napon azutan a novemberre ervenyes arfolyam a megengedheto legnagyobb
napi arvaltozassal, tehat a tonnankent 300 forintos ugynevezett
limittel ugyrott fel! Igy a jegyzes 14400 forinttal allitotta fel uj
rekordjat. Nem maradt azonban egyedul, es kisvartatva a decemberi=20
kurzus is limit-mertekben emelkedett, tonnakent 15270 forintra... =90s
meddig nohet meg? =90rzodik hat a spekulacios toke hatasa, csakugy,
mint a majusi morzsolt tonnankent 17500 forintos araban. A malmibuza
arfolyamat szinten gyors erosodes jellemzi: limittel emelkedett
oktoberre 16900 forintra, decemberre 18100 forintra. De a "futtottak
meg" kategoriaba sorolt takrmanyarpa is igy erosodott oktoberre
11300, decemberre pedig 12600 forintra. A spekulacio azonban eppoly
hasznos a tozsden, mint amilyen karos a szabadpiacon. Mert a
tozsdeparketten bukni is lehet, es a vesztes spekulansoktol vegul=20
olcsobban szerezheto be az aru. =20
                                 ORCZAN CSABA SANDOR
  =1A