Hiski Haapoja ) wrote:
: Markus Nybom BKF ) wrote:
: : The quotes certainly gave me a laugh. :) However, Tom Clancy stated 
: : (he's active on the net, in one conference) that as far as he knew, Finnish
: : was related to Hungarian and Mongolic. The man tends to have his facts 
: : straight, but I've never heard of  any resemblance to Mongolic. But the
: 
: Wasn't some official planning to invite Mr. Clancy to Finland in response
: to some absurdities in his latest bestseller? Or was it someone else?

	Indeed. But the officials got it wrong. This concerns a series of
books that are based on an idea by Tom Clancy, but not written by him.
Still, if he puts his name on the cover, he should check up the quality of
the work. (It's crap.) I think the name of the writer is Richar Piezenick.
(Hope I got the spelling right.)

Regards,
Markus

In article >  (Jarmo Ryyti) wri
tes:

>In soc.culture.nordic Markku Huttu-Hiltunen >
>wrote:
>: Markku Huttu-Hiltunen wrote:

>:  The genetics of the Finns is 75% western European and 25% Asian. 

>Bullshit. 25 % are Saami genes.

>: A correction: 25% from the east (, I dunno if that's really Asian).

>It is actually from the NORTH! From the Saamis who have lived close
>and together with the so called Finns THOUSANDS OF YEARS. 

>It is strange when Finns forget deep Saami roots. WHY?
>There is no Asian genes in the Finns but Saami genes. 
>And Saamis are "a race itself" genetically,
>very old representing oldest European gene pool.

Ahem. Sajantila et al write in Genome-Res. 1995 Aug; 5(1): 42-52:
" When mitochondrial DNA sequence variation is analyzed from a sample 
of 637 individuals in 14 European populations, most populations show 
little differentiation with respect to each other. However, the Saami 
distinguish themselves by a comparatively large amount of sequence 
difference when compared with the other populations, by a different 
distribution of sequence diversity within the population, and by the 
occurrence of particular sequence motifs. Thus, the Saami seem to have 
a long history distinct from other European populations." 

I do not have Genome Research handy (the above is from the Medline 
abstract), but it doesn't sound like the non-western European 25% of the 
Finnish genes were of Saami origin.

--
Jarmo Niemi  http://www.utu.fi/~jarnie/

In article >,
Paul Kekai Manansala > wrote:
>In article >,
>    (Daniel von Brighoff) wrote:
>>
>>You're missing a crucial element of language reconstruction:  They have to
>>be *regular* similarities, the results of *exceptionless* sound changes.
>
>Most languages I have studied do not have "exceptionless" sound changes.
>There are always at least a few exceptions to every sound change that have
>to be subjectively explained away.

There are always exceptions, but the point of having "exceptionless sound
changes" as the goal is that these should be very, very few in number.
Generally, it can be shown that most of the so-called "exceptions" are
actually borrowings from a closely-related dialect where different
"exceptionless" changes apply.  For instance, all the NHD words I can
think off which appear to present "exceptions" to the "2. Lautver-
schiebung" [the shift of voicless obstruents to voiceless affricates and
fricatives, e.g. p -> pf/f(f)] are actually borrowings from other Germanic
dialects, generally Low Saxon.  (E.g. Tiden "tides" (= Zeiten), Lippe
"lip" (= *Luepfe), Klippe "cliff" (= Kliff), etc.).  High German cognates
of these words, demonstrating all the applicable sound changes, do exist,
but are obsolete or dialectal in regard to the NHD standard.

Part of the problem in this respect comes from comparing standardised
languages, which are always to some degree the result of a compromise
between several dialects.  Nevertheless, no language variety is "pure" in
this respect, and there are always cases of borrowing and other forms of
linguistic influence.  This is one of the things that makes comparative
reconstruction challenging and not something anyone can do with couple
pocket dictionaries and a lot of time their hands.

-- 
	 Daniel "Da" von Brighoff    /\          Dilettanten
	)  /__\         erhebt Euch
				   /____\      gegen die Kunst!

 (Jarmo Niemi) wrote:
>In article >  (Jarmo Ryyti) wr
ites:
>
>>In soc.culture.nordic Markku Huttu-Hiltunen 
>
>>wrote:
>>: Markku Huttu-Hiltunen wrote:
>
>>:  The genetics of the Finns is 75% western European and 25% Asian. 
>
>>Bullshit. 25 % are Saami genes.
>
>>: A correction: 25% from the east (, I dunno if that's really Asian).
>
>>It is actually from the NORTH! From the Saamis who have lived close
>>and together with the so called Finns THOUSANDS OF YEARS. 
>
>>It is strange when Finns forget deep Saami roots. WHY?
>>There is no Asian genes in the Finns but Saami genes. 
>>And Saamis are "a race itself" genetically,
>>very old representing oldest European gene pool.
>
>Ahem. Sajantila et al write in Genome-Res. 1995 Aug; 5(1): 42-52:
>" When mitochondrial DNA sequence variation is analyzed from a sample 
>of 637 individuals in 14 European populations, most populations show 
>little differentiation with respect to each other. However, the Saami 
>distinguish themselves by a comparatively large amount of sequence 
>difference when compared with the other populations, by a different 
>distribution of sequence diversity within the population, and by the 
>occurrence of particular sequence motifs. Thus, the Saami seem to have 
>a long history distinct from other European populations." 
>
>I do not have Genome Research handy (the above is from the Medline 
>abstract), but it doesn't sound like the non-western European 25% of the 
>Finnish genes were of Saami origin.

Take care and do not jump to the conclusions. The two studies are *not*
comparable.

Drs. Sajantila et al. refers to "mitochondrial DNA sequence 
variation" while the other study looked at blood group variations. 

One can not make a direct comparision between blood typing 
(which is normally done on the protein level) and mitochonrial 
DNA. 

Even if the blood group study was done on the DNA level, it 
would be very dangerous to make a direct comparision between 
frequencies from a set of coding sequences (like blood groups 
genes) subject to possible natural selection and non coding mitochondrial DNA m
arkers which are only subject to non-selective genetic drift.

Secondly the genetics are different between nuclear genes and mitochondrial gen
es, that should be kept in mind!!!

What is clear from all the newest research in the field by
Cavalli-Sforza, S. Paabo and many others is:

1) The Sami population is markedly different with regard to gene frequency and 
distribution on the DNA level compared to any other 
population in Europe.

2) The Finns are indistigusable on the DNA level from other Indo-European popul
ations. There is no signicant difference 
between the sequence distribution between lets say Danes and 
Finns.
The difference between Ds and Fs is smaller than the variation 
within those two groups.

3) The Finns contains less genetic variation on the DNA level 
as wells as on the protein level (HLA-groups). The Finnish 
population is charcaterised by a different pattern of hereditary diseases compa
red to both Indo-european, Sami and "Asian" 
populations.

This means:

A) The Sami seem to be the oldest human population in Europe.

B) The Indo-Europeans are later arrivals. 

C) One population of Indo-European origin, the Finns, split off 
from the rest of the IE stock, and changed to a uralic language 
which they seems to have gotten from the Sami. This group (the 
Finns) was small enough and stayed sufficiently geneticly isolated 
both from the IEs and the Sami to develop the typical bottleneck features with 
regard to genetic make up (point 3 above).

henrik ernoe

(who as a geneticist would be very, very, happy if some one 
could tell him what a Sami gene is!!!)

In article >, 
 says...
>
>willy, the canadian pseudo poet and artificial artist wrote:
>
>>Canadians are unable to accept the fact that Canada is a country
>>with two nations in it. Two nations. When that fact is accepted
>>as fact, then everything else can flow from it. I personally
>>oppose seperation.
>
>Two nations? Which are those two? The algonquins and the anglos? I 
>thought the country had a few hundred indian nations in it, who consider 
>themselves separate. The inuits?
>
>Gabor

Bravo, Gabor.  I shamefacedly admit that I didn't even thought of the 
natives, only of us, millions of allophones, who do not want to live in a 
French ghetto.  

Agnes

The Florida Folk Dance Council will hold their annual President's Day
workshop and camp on 14-17 February in Silver Springs, Florida.

Instructors:  DR SANDOR TIMAR,  director and choreographer of the
Hungarian State Folk Ensemble,  Budapest,  and
JOE GRAZIOSI, popular Greek dance instructor and leader.

Cost: $135..which includes all meals and snacks, instruction, lodging in
heated and air-conditioned cotteges, evening dance parties, more!
New:  A Masters level class with Dr. Timar will be held after the regular
camp for leaders and teachers of Hungarian Folk Dance. ($12 charge)

Registration:  Jenneine Lambert, FFDC treasurer,  5310 NW 24 Place,
Gainesville, Florida 32606.   ph: 352-376-7473

Information:  Julius Horvath         904-252-5738
              Andy Pollock               813-882-4472

Don't miss this opportunity to study under the very best!
Hope to see you in Sunny Florida in February!!

In article > "MACKO" 
etcom.com> writes:

> I NEVER SAW YOUR HELP, YOUR ANSWERS ON THOSE NEWSGROUPS.

I don't read those, and I did not post to those.

>WHERE ARE YOU WHEN IT'S TIME TO HELP PEOPLE?

Where I can help. Nor where I can take advantage.

> Looks like you can criticize people instead of doing something for them.

Any facts supporing theory?

>What do you mean by scam? What did I claim that is not true? What did I
>advertise, that nobody else can benefit but me? I never claimed that
>applying for the DV-98 is not free. I never claimed that I could increase
>anybody's chances. 

Nobody ever claimed that you claimed any of the above. Fact is: people who can 
read English and follow SIMPLE instructions, do not need any middleman. People 
who can not, are very unlikey to read this newsgroup in the first place.

>I only claim, that I can prepare an acceptable application form, that will 
>not be denied like those last year. (1.9million>because of improper filing) 

Big deal. Probably most of the readers of this ng can do that, and are willing 
to do so FREE. Is that your problem? If it is, it's going to be tough to solve 
it.

>Kara Larson > wrote in article
>> PLEASE, PLEASE don't pay anyone to "process" your visa lottery 
>> application for you. You can send them in directly yourself, it couldn't 
>> be easier, and its absolutely free!! No one, no matter what they claim, 
>> can improve your chances of winning a visa!!
>> 
>> I work for a non-profit refugee resettlement agency, and every year at 
>> lottery time scammers spring up like grass to take advantage of green 
>> card hopefuls. DON'T FALL PREY!!
>> 
>> If you need to know how to submit an application, send me an e-mail and 
>> I'll gladly explain.

>> Kara Larson
>> Assistant Director, Communications
>> Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society
>> 

See? Why pay for something offered free of charge? (Great job, Kara!)

>> > George Kovacs > wrote in article

>Don't send money to anyone. The Greencard Lottery is free. Paying a lawyer 
>or agent DOES NOT increase your chences.

Anyone can find anything in this which is not true?
GK

Regarding stowewrite's inquiry into Sebestyen and Hungarian folk music.

Similarities to Celtic music are real, indeed. In fact, in Budapest there
is a Celtic-Hungarian music society where Hungarian and Irish emigre
musicians play together and dabble in each others musics.

In addition to similar instrumentation (violin, bagpipes etc) noted in
previous message, sometimes similar scales and modes are used: there's a
pentatonic (five-note) scale used in much Hungarian and Celtic music that
is pretty common throughout the world. The Middle Eastern influence comes
through most clearly in the use of microtonal and whole-tone filigrees
around a note, especially at the end of a musical phrase; meaning, that
sort of vocal (or instrumental) quiver you hear, usually going down on the
scale. I think it's more common in Transylvania and eastern Hungary, as
that's closer to Turkey, one of the sources of that characteristic. The
melodic line, the contours of a melody, is also influenced by Middle
Eastern music.

Bela Bartok, in his exploration of Hungarian folk music, travelled to
Algeria and elsewhere in North Africa looking for those sources.

I have a few Muzsikas and Marta Sebestyen CD's, one Muzsikas CD in
particular I bought in Budapest when I lived there and have never seen
here, and it's quite good: Nem ugy van most, mint volt regen (Things
aren't the way they used to be). Blues from Transylvania is also pretty
good, though on the one I have the order of songs and lyrics is completely
out of sequence.

I've heard of Teka but don't have any of their music. At least not yet!

David McCracken

In article >  (aheringer) writes:
>From:  (aheringer)
>Subject: Re: soc.culture.magyar
>Date: 11 Jan 1997 21:48:29 GMT

>In article >,  
>says...
>>
>>I'm new. help

>What kind of a help do you need?

>Agnes

Major and kind.

In article >,  
says...
>
>I'm new. help

What kind of a help do you need?

Agnes

most la'ttam a chicago bulls gyo:zelme't houston csapat ellen!
angolul azt mondta'k: "The Bullies"
magyarul to:bessza'm: "kis o:kro"k"
lehet e mondanni: "o:kro:kcse'k" ???

ve'leme'nyek?

ja'nos



--

I have been doing genealogical research for several years now.  I am looking
for the birthplace of my great grandmother, Robertina (Bertha) Boroik (maybe -
Baroik).  Some documents say only that she was from Austria-Hungary.  I just
recently found a document that mentioned the birtplace as Undresk, Hungary. 
This town currently doesn't exist.  But maybe the name was changed or the name
was incorrectly cited by and American that couldn't speak her language.

Can anyone help me in regards to this?  Thanks.


Brought to you by crbsar (aka - DSTAR)
.....nothing left to do but smile, smile, smil

 (agnes heringer) wrote:
>>>I fully agree. On the top of it, these people won't get a
>>>decent education if they won't be able to speak/write English,
>>>so even the smart and ambitious ones won't be able to get out
>>>of poverty. This is the same stupidity as what the Quebec
>>>government does, to deprive children of learning decent
>>>English, with their French only policy.
>>>Agnes

Poetician1 wrote: 
>>Perhaps if they learned decent French they wouldn't end up so
>>stupid.

>"Johanne L. Tournier" > wrote:
>|Anyway, you are putting words in Agnes's mouth, Wally. She did
>|not say that speaking French is stupid or causes sstupidity,
>|she said the policy of limiting access to English language
>|education in Quebec is stupid.

(Johanne, where did I put those words into her mouth? I don't see
it other than in your red herring contention)

Poetician1 wrote:
>She said that it is "the same stupidity" by the Oakland Board of
>Education and the Quebec government wherein if children don't
>learn decent English they won't be able to get out of poverty.
>This is, of course, hogwash. Learning decent French does not
>condemn a child to poverty. This is a stupid contention. 

 (agnes heringer) wrote:
|Nobody said learning decent French is stupid.  French is a
|beautiful language and I love it.  Depriving children of
|learning decent English is stupid.

You are right, nobody said learning decent French is stupid. It
is my contention that learning decent French (to the exclusion of
learning English) can lead to success, not to poverty. French is
a world language, as is Spanish. You seem to think that every
government everywhere should be financing the teaching of English
as well as their native tongue. If a person wants their children
to be educated in English, then immigrate to an English-speaking
province/country. It is not Quebec's primary responsibility to
teach English to the children of immigrants. Quebec is a French-
speaking nation and its FIRST responsibility is to take measures
it deems fit to enhance its Frenchness -- that means that the
children of immigrants who freely chose to live there also chose
to accept its culture fully. It does not need immigrant-ingrates
like you.

Where do you get off with your attitudes anyway? If you
immigrated to British Columbia and lived in Kamloops, would you
accuse the BC government of being stupid because it "deprived"
your child of being educated in French at BC expense? Even if you
immigrated from France, and your mother tongue was French, the BC
government would not educate your child in French -- if it's
available as an immersion course in a Vancouver school, fine, but
I think the learning of Chinese would be more profitable policy.

Poetician1 wrote:
>>At any rate, Quebec permits English instruction of those
>>students whose mother tongue was English -- 
>
>"Johanne L. Tournier" >
>|but they don't permit English education for those whose mother
>|tongue was *other* than English, 
>
>Why the hell should they? Those who immigrate to Canada and
>FREELY CHOOSE to reside in Quebec are up for grabs -- Quebec
>requires that they learn French, the other provinces require
>that they learn English. In Penetanguishene the students can get
>a French education. Penetag has been historically French. They
>were French before the English conquest. The same for the belt
>of French across northern Ontario (Sudbury & region) extending
>into Manitoba. There are pockets of English in Quebec who have a
>historically established right to expect English education
>continuity for their children. Children of immigrants do not
>have this right in Quebec, any more than children of immigrants
>have a right to expect a French education in Edmonton. If an
>immigrant wants their children taught in English, then they can
>freely choose to live in 75% of the rest of Canada where the
>Quebec Act of 1774 never prevailed. 

|Right.  There are not too many immigrants outside of Montreal
|and they are doing just that: leaving in a constant stream.

And Quebec is a better place to lose immigrant-ingrates like you.

|Tolem ugyan ki is viragozhatnak...  Main thing I am not there
|any more!

Given your attitudes, I'd almost prefer you weren't here either.

 Wally Keeler wrote:
>Canadians are unable to accept the fact that Canada is a country
>with two nations in it. Two nations. When that fact is accepted
>as fact, then everything else can flow from it. I personally
>oppose seperation. 

 (Agnes Heringer)wrote:
|You are contradicting yourself. OK, two nations.

There is no contradition, there is only your denial of Canada's
central condition. At the publishing reception of my first book
in Montreal, 1969, I was introduced to Hugh McLennan, one of
Canada's foremost novelists, noted for his book, "Two Solitudes."
This book was sufficiently profound to be taught in the Ontario
secondary school system. In 1971, Macleans magazine interviewed
Mr McLennan and this is what he had to say about "Two Solitudes."

     "I did not, of course, 'invent' the phrase 'two 
     solitudes.' It comes from a sentence of rainer 
     Maria Rilke and I still think it is one of the 
     supreme poetic utterances of our century, though 
     actually it was a line of prose in a letter to a 
     friend.... 'Love consists in this, that two 
     solitudes protect and touch and greet each other.' 
     Surely the best practical definition of love ever 
     uttered, whether applied to individuals or to two 
     nations sharing a single state."

Two nations Agnes. There is not contradiction. It is a fact and
if you want Canada to continue as a confederation of two nations,
then you had better accept this fact, and begin from this fact.
Quite frankly Agnes, I am surpised that you have lived in Canada
all these years and remain significantly ignorant about its
fundamental character. Your ignorance may well be reflected in
the fact that I have yet to see you post in soc.culture.canada. I
don't recall ever seeing your name participating in discussions
about Canadian concerns there. Perhaps you are a Canadian for
Convenience.

|Forget the 30-40% allophones who are living here and want only
|to be Canadians, not Quebecers, Ontarians, Manitobans, etc.,

However, Quebecers want to be Quebecers. The vast majority want
to be Quebecers first and foremost. They don't want insensitive
domineering anglophones and/or allophones telling them that they
cannot be Quebecers first in their heart and soul. Yes, forget
the sensitivities of the Quebecers and their distinct needs.
"Yes, we just embarked from the plane from other lands and we are
here to demand that we be remembered." What arrogance Agnes. And
what 30-40% allophones where? Is it 30% or 40%. If you are going
to bandy about statistics, then cut the guesstimates, because
they are about as inaccurate as pseudo-aesthete Gyorgy Kovac's
declarations of what constitutes poetry and what does not.

>etc. The two nations should have equal rights, one should not be
>more equal than the other. You know, this is all so stupid.

The two nations should have rights that protect their distinctive
cultures. This means assymetrical rights. You have been listening
to many Preston Manning clones -- Quebec does not want to be more
equal, it wants all the powers necessary to protect and promote
is distinctive culture. Perhaps in the context of North America,
it would be better if Canada adopted and lived by the
Constitution of the USA. After all, two nations sharing North
America should have equal rights. Canada should not be more equal
in terms of medicare, pensions, etc. It is stupid that we
continue to maintain two seperate constitutions, seperate
criminal codes, etc. Your proposals, Agnes, are unreal, and it
your ideological outlook that causes problems. No doubt you are
opposed to any proposition that would lead to autonomy for Erdely
from Romania.

|If the lingua franca of the world would be, say, German (do you
|know that English was voted in as the offical language over
|German only by one vote?), we would not have this discussion.  
|Agnes

We are not dealing with speculative fiction here -- it is better
left to William Gibson and his kind. Canada is not speculative
fiction. Before seeing any other country in the world, I took
three months with a backpack travelling from sea to sea to sea,
sleeping outdoors in the vastness of Canada. I worked for Lands
and Forests at one time, so I am familiar with the assorted
wilderness. When my Hungarian wife arrived in Canada, the first
vacation we took was to drop into bear country north of Superior.
She was terrified, while I slept well. I took her into Indian
villages, up assorted rivers and canyons. My son is now coming of
age and it is time for him to sleep outdoors in the Arctic, to
lie beneath the sublime brilliance of the Northern Lights. He
speaks fluent Hungarian. So many immigrants come to Canada and
their industry have made and continue to make this a prosperous
country. I only regret that when they vacation, their return to
their homeland (understandable) or travel stateside. The
proportion of 1st generation immigrants who have travelled to the
arctic is dismally and regaretably low. I loved the diversity of
Europe as a continent, however I had always felt claustrophobic
there -- too many borders, too many "papers please". I prefer the
vast wilderness of the far north, not the overdeveloped near
north of Muskoka, Laurentia, etc. I would hope Agnes that you
deepen your understanding of Canada and Quebec. 

You and I share much more than you might think. I don't think
Canada will remain a sea-to-sea confederation as long as we
continue to insist (impose) Anglo sensibilities on the people of
Quebec. They deserve recognition and support of their distinctive
culture and society (nationhood) and we deserve it as well. It
would be good for both of us.

aheringer ) writes:
> In article >, 
>  says...
>>willy, the canadian pseudo poet and artificial artist wrote:
>>>Canadians are unable to accept the fact that Canada is a country
>>>with two nations in it. Two nations. When that fact is accepted
>>>as fact, then everything else can flow from it. I personally
>>>oppose seperation.
>>
>>Two nations? Which are those two? 

USAmericans are notoriously ignorant of Canadian affairs. If you don't
know the answer to those questions, you are case in point.

>>The algonquins and the anglos? I 
>>thought the country had a few hundred indian nations in it, who consider 
>>themselves separate. 

Care to name those nations?

>>The inuits?
>>Gabor

There are no inuits. There are Inuit. They are distinct from the Innu. And
guess who the Cree want to seperate from in the event of a certain occurrance?

> Bravo, Gabor.  

Bravo Agnes, you know how to cheer on the ill-informed in this particular
matter, but then again, you are just as ill-informed.

> I shamefacedly admit that I didn't even thought of the 
> natives, 

Why would you have thought of them? It's typical of you that you would not
think of anything except your narrow-minded anglo-chauvinist view of
Francophone/Quebec matters. I regard you as one of those minority of
immigrants to Canada that are detrimental to the country. 

> only of us, millions of allophones, 

And what millions Agnes? Is this the 30-40% allophones you posted earlier
and which is nothing more than a fabrication. Support your contention of
30-40% allophone Agnes. I dare you. You have Gyorgy Kovacs' support of
this fabrication. He says you are "right on". So c'mon guys, support your
facts. 

The 1986 census deliniated Canadians by mother tongue in the following
manner:  English ---- 63.1%
         French ----- 24.3%
         allophones - ??.?%

> who do not want to live in a 
> French ghetto.  

OK Agnes, who are the millions of allophones in Quebec who don't want to
live in a French ghetto? Support your contention, or are you just
bullshitting soc.culture.magyar. You may convince Gyorgy and Gabor to
swallow this (bon appetit) and a handful of yahoos in Alberta. 

Of course the demographics change since 1986, but really Agnes, 30-40%
allophone, millions of allophones in Quebec. What a delusion.

Perhaps Gabor can tell us the proportions of the native nations and list
those that want to seperate. I think not. None of you are interested in an
exchange of information on this matter. You are simply a mutual support
system spreading misinformation on this subject matter.

Brynjolfur Olason ) wrote:
: Steve Kiely wrote:
: > 
: > Name one (1) country with a racist-free history:
: > 
: > 1.
: > 
: > Steve Kiely
: > http://www.magna.com.au/~c41
: 
: Iceland - the Northern fringe of the world! Just check it out.

umm....

questions:

1. Who settled Iceland?
2. What did those people do to others they encountered?

answers:

1. Norwegians/Vikings
2. Killed them