In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>Please don't misunderstand me.  If someone wants to know something about
the
>way Hungarians celebrate St. Nicks day or Christmas day and someone is
>willing to share that information, fine.  I have no problem with that.  I
do
>however get a bit irritated by all the willy nilly greetings that go on
at
>this time of year.  Please respect our differences.
>
>Joe Szalai
>
>

I'd like to take this opportunity to wish each and every one on the list a
happy and prosperous Boxing Day (Dec. 26).

Sam Stowe

KKU and BUEK!

Peter I. Hidas, Montreal

In an attempt to show support for Frank Benyak's rant, Christine Jacques
Gergely wrote:

>BRAVO,   BRAVO

While I don't agree with her sentiment, she is much more coherent than
Frank.  BRAVA!  BRAVA!

Joe Szalai

Shannon Morris wrote:

>Though
>Americans really should not be the ones giving lessons on racial hatred, I
>would have to say the difference between racism in the US and Hungary is
>that in Hungary, it is socially acceptable to hold and express racist
>views.

Absolutely correct.

Eva Balogh

Janos Czifra is using languague on this list to which we are not accustomed.

Says he:

>Haliho,
>
>Evikem, you only made one historical correction and an opinion on my
comment.

And later:

Czifra (egy "f"-el csak kicsim)

I just want him to know that I am not his "Evike," or his "kicsi."

Eva Balogh

James Doepp makes some interesting comments about the "gypsy problem".  Yes,
all stereotypes have some truth in reality.  And yes, I also agree with Jim
when he says;

>I think only after understanding this background should we stand up and
>condemn anti-gypsy attitudes.

However, I disagree with Jim when he says;

>The problem I see is a cultural
>one.  Gypsies are traditionally a "vandor nep", and had traditional
>occupations (such as basket weaving).  They never were known for
>respecting property rights, because of the culture in which they lived.
>Their situation degenerated when that they have been forced to leave
>their traditional way of life and have a permanent address, workplace,
>etc.

The 'problem' may be a cultural one, but who's culture?  Hungarian culture
or Gypsy culture?  The Jews in Hungary had, and continue to have, a
permanent address and workplace, etc.   Why are they harassed?  Is their
problem a cultural one as well?

It seems to me that Hungarians are quite good at accepting people who are
like themselves.  People who are white, christian, and hard working, seem to
have the least difficulty becoming Hungarian.  However, if you're not white
or christian, watch out.  You may never be accepted.

Yes, culturally speaking the gypsis were a 'vandor nep'(nomadic people).
But, also culturally speaking, Hungarians have not been enthusiastic about
accepting people who were too different.  Jim's comment that,

>only after understanding this background should we stand up and
>condemn anti-gypsy attitudes

only solves half the problem.  The other half could be solved if we
(Magyars) study our history and try to understand our cultural traits that
make us so reluctant, as a people, to accept significant(?) differences.

Now, just in case someone is looking for a whipping boy (and I know you're
out there!), I will say that my comments are not cast on all Hungarians,
Gypsies or Jews.  Obviously there's good and bad people in any culture.

Happy Solstice everyone!!! :-))

Joe Szalai

Dear Colleagues,

With the help of Lajos Pagony and his Congressman Charles Taylor, we have
received reliable information on the status of the construction of the
Mochovce (Mohi) nuclear power plant. It seems desirable that we make our
representatives aware of the situation and do our best to eliminate this
safety hazard. A "individualizable" form-letter is provided below:

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Dear (Mr. PRESIDENT, SENATOR, CONGRESSMAN, ETC)

RE: Safety Risc Due To Nuclear Plant

I am (PLEASE INTRODUCE YOURSELF). I am one of the 1.6 Hungarian-Americans who
are concerned about a safety hazard represented by the Mochovce(Mohi) nuclear
plant construction in Slovakia, some 30 miles from the Hungarian border. This
80% completed plant, consists of two, first generation pressurized water
(VVER) reactors, which pose unacceptable risks, due to their lack of
containment and inadequate safety systems. The European Bank for
Reconstruction and Development (EBRD) considered a loan for upgrading their
safety, but Slovakia withdrew her application and started negotiation with
Russia to obtain $150 million to complete the plant. This sum, even if
provided, will not suffice to safely complete the Mochovce (Mohi) plant.

It is in the interest of the United States and her G-7 allies to bring all
nuclear plants up to the JCCCNRS (Joint Coordinating Committee for Civilian
Nuclear Reactor Safety ) standards. When Slovakia (in violation of
international law) rerouted the border river Danube onto her own territory,
she claimed that the yearly $150 million amount of electricity produced, will
make it unnecessary to complete the Mochovce(Mohi) plant.
It is in the interest of the United States to increase not only the world
wide safety of nuclear plants, but also to increase the world wide respect
for international law.

For these reasons, I respectfully ask you to write to the President of
Slovakia, Michal Kovac, and protest the Mochovce(Mohi) construction.

Respectfully yours,

Your name, address, affiliation
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

If you need the E-mail of Fax addresses of your representatives or local
papers, for a few more days, you can get them from me. On the 1st of January,
1996, the Hungarian Lobby(HL) will have its own list. You can subscribe to it
by writing to:  and writing in the body text: subscribe
hl
The Hungarian Lobby(HL) will also have a home page on the World Wide Web at:
http://mineral.umd.edu/hl/  which will outline the actions in progress and
provide you with form-letters. If you need addresses of politicians or of the
media, you can also obtain those from: http://mineral.umd.edu/hl/archive/

My thanks to Peter Kaslik, who will also provide an HL homepage, which will
emphasize Canadian addresses. I would also like to thank Odon Sandor, who
have mailed an HL position paper to 1000 addresses, including all USA
Senators and Congressman. If you would like to have a copy, write to: POB
750068, Forest Hills, NY 11375-0068.

Wishing you a happy Holyday Season: Bela Liptak

Re: attached discussion, I would comment that it depends. It
depends on the people that you associate with whether prejudice,
of any kind, is socially acceptable behavior. I know of a lot
of people, yes Hungarians, for whom it is not.

C.K. ZOLTANI


> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject:      Gypsies/Hungarians
To:           Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY >

Shannon Morris wrote:

>Though
>Americans really should not be the ones giving lessons on racial hatred, I
>would have to say the difference between racism in the US and Hungary is
>that in Hungary, it is socially acceptable to hold and express racist
>views.

Absolutely correct.

Eva Balogh

----- End of forwarded messages

> Joe Szalai wrote...

> The internet, including this newsgroup, operates world wide.  It would
> appear that every day of the year is a special day for someone.

Every day you get out of bed is special. Ask anyone who thought that they were
going to die.

> What would happen if everyone sent greetings and wishes and graphics to
> ...snip...

> Please don't misunderstand me.  If someone wants to know something about the
> way Hungarians celebrate St. Nicks day or Christmas day and someone is
> willing to share that information, fine.  I have no problem with that.  I do
> however get a bit irritated by all the willy nilly greetings that go on at
> this time of year.  Please respect our differences.

I do respect your difference, however (I am willing to be corrected if I err)
Christmas is the most widespread festival celebrated, and a portion of the
Special days you mentioned are incorporated into that celebration. And given
that the internet is most prevalent in so called technically advanced
countries, and a vast majority of these have a constitution/laws (whatever)
based on Christianity, I must insist.......

..have a Happy and Peace filled Christmas. (To all)

GarryC.

############################################################################
# Better a dry crust                    # Internet:        #
# with peace and quiet,                 # Garry Collins, Electronics Dev't,#
# than a house full of feasting,        # PEC (New Zealand) Ltd     Marton #
# with strife.           Proverbs 17:1  # New Zealand   Tel +64 6 327 8189 #
############################################################################

>From the snowy hills of Southern Ohio a toast:

(use moonshine or kisusti)

To all those who wish us well and all the rest can go to hell.

Regards,Jeliko

Dear Shannon Morris or Eva Balogh or anybody,

>Though
>Americans really should not be the ones giving lessons on racial hatred, I
>would have to say the difference between racism in the US and Hungary is
>that in Hungary, it is socially acceptable to hold and express racist
>views.

What is this 'socially acceptable or unacceptable' means?

Dear Janos
    Yes you have missed somthing.
  Constantinu Donea, our Romanian reader collague has told :
  1.6 million Hung. and 7 millions Rom. in Erdely(TS) makes him feel
  that Erdely belongs to Romania, as he told "I can not leave aside".
  He also said, "this is a simple math".
    That was a respond to this, and may not be clear without this
  recitation above. I said that it is not a simple math, since
  there are towns e.g. near the Hung. borderline with more than
  90% Hung. population, and
  the 1.6:7 ratio is far from the reality, and they - I am sure -
  "could leave themselv aside from current Romania", a neverending question
  in Erdely. Also the ethnic map shows that a "curly thick tail" exist
  in Erdely with dense Hungarian population, so the overall ratio
  is misleading. Also I know people from Erdely that even the overal
  ratio is not really 1.6:7.
    The talk was initiated that Liptak Bela - as Constantinu Donea said -
  is against his country. But I stated that Liptak Bela does very well with
  the Hungarian Lobby, and that is not against Romania, but
  only for Hungarians who were put outside of current Hungary
  in Trianon traty.
  And that treaty was not fair (but fear) since purely Hungarian
  territories with almost 100% Hung. population were chopped off.
  Unfortunatelly the effect of decades of brainwashing today is
  that it is "natural" that
  Hungary can be a country with only almost 100% ethnic ratio, and
  only the neighbor countries can have minorities, dispite  the
  local Hungarian majorty just otside of current Hungarian borderlines.
  That unfair treaty is the point of only impact between these
  countries anyway.
    The "1.6*7 = 11.2 ..." was just a ironic comment how statistics
  can be manipulated, and a good example for a question which can not
  be answered. You may divide as well if you want.
                         Dr. Dr. K.S.

A happy St. Barbara's day not only to all Basques, but also to all fellow
artillerymen (and women), active or retired.

L.Elteto

Dear Colleagues,

A kind "nepnevelo" (a Communist term describing an official who's job it is
to tell people what they are supposed to think) have sent me a collection of
letters from one of the E-Mail discussion groups, claiming that: "your
gypsyphile letter was the catalyst for this!"

Well, I plead guilty to the accusation: I do like the strength, loyalty,
independence and the freedom loving nature of the Roma culture and I am
convinced that Hungary will be the first place (in the distant future), where
eventually, they will feel at home.

As to the letters that were attached, I must say, that they were
disappointing. They did not display any respect, understanding (let alone
love) for the Roma people, they just used the anti-Roma prejudice in Hungary
(which does exist) to put down the Hungarian nation, my nation, which is the
most hospitable, most understanding, and most friendly toward the Romas among
all nations on this planet. It made me sad to note, that the most
anti-Hungarian tirades were written by people with Hungarian names, while the
factual and balanced comments were often made by "foreigners". (Sure, I know:
a name does not mean anything, and sure I know that members of a family are
justified in being the most critical about their family, but still, I would
have expected more respect and understanding.) I also noted that Anglo-Saxon
cultural standards were sometimes applied in judging Hungarian behavior. This
is a serious mistake:

When a prejudiced Hungarian feels free to openly express his/her
reprehensible views, it is not because these views are  "socially
acceptable", but because it is an "open" culture where people say what they
feel like. In Hungary there is no such thing as a "polically correct view".
In Hungary, when you sit down next to a stranger on the bus, you will not
discuss the weather. No! Between bus stops you will learn the weight, age,
income, sexual preference (if the significant other is not present),
politics, religion, and yes, also the prejudices of that person, in addition
to  being advised about the containment problems of the father-in-law and
about the leaking water pipe in the basement. When visiting and before
judging an other culture, it is a moral obligation to understand it. Open
cultures openly show their ugly sides too, but this does not mean, that more
hypocritical cultures are either superior or that they do not have their own
prejudices.

It is also false to say that Hungarians did not assimilate (I use the term
NOT TO MEAN changing to the liking of the host society, but to mean: fell
comfortable, feel at home) other races or other, non-Christian religions. The
ten tribes entering the Carpathian basin included dark skinned Turkic tribes,
Muslims and Jewish (the Kabars) tribes in addition to the pagan and mongolian
Megyer tribe. During the last 1100 years, Slavic, Germanic and Latin people
were welcomed and I would not at all be surprised if 2-3 centuries from now,
a slanted eyed, yellow skinned Hungarian, of Budhist faith and  Hong-Kong
ancestry would be defending on the Internet, this marvelous gene-stew, that
we call the Hungarians.

Happy Holydays: Bela Liptak

Dear Colleagues,

A kind "nepnevelo" (a Communist term describing an official who's job it is
to tell people what they are supposed to think) have sent me a collection of
letters from one of the E-Mail discussion groups, claiming that: "your
gypsyphile letter was the catalyst for this!" 

Well, I plead guilty to the accusation: I do like the strength, loyalty,
independence and the freedom loving nature of the Roma culture and I am
convinced that Hungary will be the first place (in the distant future), where
eventually, they will feel at home.

As to the letters that were attached, I must say, that they were
disappointing. They did not display any respect, understanding (let alone
love) for the Roma people, they just used the anti-Roma prejudice in Hungary
(which does exist) to put down the Hungarian nation, my nation, which is the
most hospitable, most understanding, and most friendly toward the Romas among
all nations on this planet. It made me sad to note, that the most
anti-Hungarian tirades were written by people with Hungarian names, while the
factual and balanced comments were often made by "foreigners". (Sure, I know:
a name does not mean anything, and sure I know that members of a family are
justified in being the most critical about their family, but still, I would
have expected more respect and understanding.) I also noted that Anglo-Saxon
cultural standards were sometimes applied in judging Hungarian behavior. This
is a serious mistake:

When a prejudiced Hungarian feels free to openly express his/her
reprehensible views, it is not because these views are  "socially
acceptable", but because it is an "open" culture where people say what they
feel like. In Hungary there is no such thing as a "polically correct view".
In Hungary, when you sit down next to a stranger on the bus, you will not
discuss the weather. No! Between bus stops you will learn the weight, age,
income, sexual preference (if the significant other is not present),
politics, religion, and yes, also the prejudices of that person, in addition
to  being advised about the containment problems of the father-in-law and
about the leaking water pipe in the basement. When visiting and before
judging an other culture, it is a moral obligation to understand it. Open
cultures openly show their ugly sides too, but this does not mean, that more
hypocritical cultures are either superior or that they do not have their own
prejudices.
  
It is also false to say that Hungarians did not assimilate (I use the term
NOT TO MEAN changing to the liking of the host society, but to mean: fell
comfortable, feel at home) other races or other, non-Christian religions. The
ten tribes entering the Carpathian basin included dark skinned Turkic tribes,
Muslims and Jewish (the Kabars) tribes in addition to the pagan and mongolian
Megyer tribe. During the last 1100 years, Slavic, Germanic and Latin people
were welcomed and I would not at all be surprised if 2-3 centuries from now,
a slanted eyed, yellow skinned Hungarian, of Budhist faith and  Hong-Kong
ancestry would be defending on the Internet, this marvelous gene-stew, that
we call the Hungarians.

Happy Holydays: Bela Liptak

Sorry if this doesn't work - I'm new to posting.

Can anybody help me by telling me if they know of funding that would be
available to send a Hungarian paramedic student in her 3rd year to the
UK to do supplementary studies?

If so please could you e-mail me on 

Koszonom szepen!

Seasons greetings,

Iain.

Dear Szalai Jozsef,

>The 'problem' may be a cultural one, but who's culture?  Hungarian culture
>or Gypsy culture?  The Jews in Hungary had, and continue to have, a
>permanent address and workplace, etc.   Why are they harassed?  Is their
>problem a cultural one as well?

Who is harassing the Jews in Hungary? Csurka with his marginal popularity, or
the skinheads, who are mainly attacking gypsies, arabs, or african peoples.
I have heard only one attack against a young jewish man and I am not sure,
the reason was his descent. Anyone can be attacked by them, who is not showing
sympathy to their ideas or simple being in the wrong place in a wrong time.
The actual percentage of the active skinheads are not higher then everywhere
in Europe (or in the US). I think the antisemitism is not a serious problem
recently in Hungary. I have met a lots of people who dislikes (and not hate!)
gypsies but very few who has the same feeling toward Jews.

>Yes, culturally speaking the gypsis were a 'vandor nep'(nomadic people).
>But, also culturally speaking, Hungarians have not been enthusiastic about
>accepting people who were too different.

May I ask you why they should? Would you marry someone who is 'too different'
from your ideals? Or would you let anyone to live in your appartment whose
life-style is 'too different' from yours?

>only solves half the problem.  The other half could be solved if we
>(Magyars) study our history and try to understand our cultural traits that
>make us so reluctant, as a people, to accept significant(?) differences.

OK. Let me ask, what are those unaccepted 'significant(?) differences' in
the case of gypsies?

Janos

the pagan and mongolian
Megyer tribe.

The Megyer tribe was not Mongolian but Magyar-speaking Ugrian. While there were
Jews amongst the Khabars, it is not at all certain that the three Khabar tribes
practised Judaism. Your remarks about those with Hungarian names who disagree
with you does not deserve a response.
KKU and BUEK!
Peter

Hello!

        I have a quick translation to ask:

        I want to say 'he gives the stars to you', it is a title
        for an artwork.

        I wanted to say it in an old-fashioned way so I tried,
        'ad tehozza'd a csillagokot',  /from orszagh laszlo, 1953/
        which I thought was like 'he gives unto thee thyself the stars',
        but I was told this is wrong and I should say,
        'ad te neked a csillagokot'

        Isn't there an old fashioned or obsolete way I can say this?

        Thanks!
        Misi

Is there someone in Budapest who knows of an Internet site an Hungarian friend
could use to communicate with me?  If so, please let me know particulars.
Thank you very much-  Richard Cline

Bela Liptak discusses national character, PC, racism, and hypocrisy:

> I also noted that Anglo-Saxon cultural standards were sometimes applied
> in judging Hungarian behavior.  [...] When a prejudiced Hungarian feels
> free to openly express his/her reprehensible views, it is not because
> these views are  "socially acceptable", but because it is an "open"
> culture where people say what they feel like. In Hungary there is no
> such thing as a "polically correct view". [...] Open cultures openly
> show their ugly sides too, but this does not mean, that more hypocritical
> cultures are either superior or that they do not have their own
> prejudices.

I don't know what to make of the claim that Hungary is an "open" culture.
Open to what?  Open compared to what?  Is it more "open" that the
"Anglo-Saxon" cultures you are measuring it against?  Or is the word
"open" being used in a non-standard sense, like the word "assimilation"?
Care to elaborate?

As for hypocrisy, even if one accepts your (implied) claim that we are
all racists at heart but some have learnt to hide it better, there is
still something to be said for hypocrisy as a civilizing force.  There
is a great deal of difference between someone who is daydreaming about
raping little girls, and someone who acts on those impulses.  Similarly,
one who is a racist at heart but learnt to hide it has at least
internalized the fact that there is something shameful about being a
racist.  This is undeniably a step forward.  As Aristotle said in his
Nicomachean Ethics, if you would like to be virtuous but don't know
where to start, it is best to go ahead and behave as if you were virtuous
already.  Hypocrisy is not as good as the real thing, but it is better
than nothing.

-----
Gabor Fencsik

On Thu, 14 Dec 1995, Eva S. Balogh wrote:

> I think Bela Liptak's description of the Gypsies' status in Hungary and the
> Hungarian population's attitude toward the Roma is too idyllic. The fact is
> that prejudice against the Gypsies in Hungary is extremely strong. One can
> read the published opinion polls on the matter or just listen to people when
> the topic of the Gypsies come up.
>
> Eva Balogh
>

It is easy to condemn the anti-gypsy attitude in Hungary.  Before doing
so (and I believe it should be done) one must really try to understand
the background to the "gypsy problem".

When people speak about certain characteristics of the gypsies,
these are not made up from thin air.

People I know who have done much to help the gypsies, and work with them
paint no ideal pictures with regard to them.  Just a couple of weeks ago
gypsies broke into a church not too far from here, tore out all the wood
(pews, etc) and burnt them to keep warm.  I know a Dutch group that was
giving aid near Marosvasarhely, who had to run for their lives after a
fight broke out while they were distributing gifts.  An acquaintance that
was staying at my flat in Sarospatak a couple years ago came back in the
evening with his shirt literally torn off his back by the gypsies.  Some
friends of mine who live near Heves don't go though a year without a pine
tree cut down from their yard to be used as a Christmas tree by the
gypsies.  These are not just stories invented by a paranoid public.

Please do not misunderstand me.  These incidents have nothing to do with
the *race* of those who are involved.  The problem I see is a cultural
one.  Gypsies are traditionally a "vandor nep", and had traditional
occupations (such as basket weaving).  They never were known for
respecting property rights, because of the culture in which they lived.
Their situation degenerated when that they have been forced to leave
their traditional way of life and have a permanent address, workplace,
etc.  Perhaps their situation could be compared to that of the American
Indians - only instead of being in a far off place on a reservation, they
are scattered throughout the country.

I think only after understanding this background should we stand up and
condemn anti-gypsy attitudes.

I am sure Balogh Eva, the relentless scholar, understands the history and
context of the gypsy problem better then I.

jim


/ / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /

James D. Doepp
University of Miskolc (Hungary)
Department of Economic Theory


"...if pleasure and liking, pain and dislike, are formed in the
soul on right lines before the age of understanding is reached,
and when that age is attained, these feelings are in concord with
understanding, thanks to early discipline in appropriate habits -
this concord, regarded as a whole, is virtue.  But if you consider
one factor in it, the rightly disciplined state of pleasures and
pains whereby man, from his first beginnings on, will abhor what
he should abhor and relish what he should relish - if you isolate
this factor and call it education, you will be giving it its true name."

Plato, Laws II

/ / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /

Aldott Karacsonyi Unnepeket kivanok mindenkinek, es Boldog Uj Evet.

Signing off until January!

A viszontlat(?)asra januar 8.

jim




/ / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /

James D. Doepp
University of Miskolc (Hungary)
Department of Economic Theory


"...if pleasure and liking, pain and dislike, are formed in the
soul on right lines before the age of understanding is reached,
and when that age is attained, these feelings are in concord with
understanding, thanks to early discipline in appropriate habits -
this concord, regarded as a whole, is virtue.  But if you consider
one factor in it, the rightly disciplined state of pleasures and
pains whereby man, from his first beginnings on, will abhor what
he should abhor and relish what he should relish - if you isolate
this factor and call it education, you will be giving it its true name."

Plato, Laws II

/ / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /