tsk... tsk... tsk..... Tony...

At 08:04 AM 01/09/96 GMT, you wrote:
>In soc.culture.magyar,  (Tony) wrote:
>
>>All you Europeans -- particularly you Eastern Europeans -- seem to do
>>all day is babble on about your National Grievances.  Like people in
>>the Middle East -- the Turks, the Arabs, the Armenians, the Kurds, the
>>Baluchis, the Shi'ites -- you all seem to have a National Grievance.  
>>The Romanians' grievance is that there are too many Hungarians in
>>Romania.   The Hungarian grievance is that Romania (with German
>>support?) "stole" part of Hungary (this is probably true).   The
>>Serbian grievance is that all of its neighbors, be they Muslim,
>>Catholic, or whatever, have long conspired to destroy the Serb people
>>and their "true" Orthodox religion.  It also has something to do with
>>Croatian support for the Nazis in the World War II.   There are
>>Macedonian grievances; Bosnian grievances; Kosovo grievances; Slovenian
>>grievances; the list is endless.   The Ukrainians' grievances are about
>>domination by Russia.  The Poles' grievances likewise, and also about
>>their fears of the Germans.   
>>
>>Everyone has a grievance, national, ethnic, political and/or religious,
>>and this has resulted in generation after generation of people
>>(generally it is males, and older males in particular who fan the

--------------------------Edited Major rambling diatribe---------------------


>>differences.   But if the many scores of faiths co-existing in the
>>United States can live together without plotting to wipe each other out
>>(yes, we do have the occasional religious cult which commits
>>mass-suicide -- but that is another story!) -- if Catholics, and
                  --------------------------
Another story...?  NOT AT ALL..!  Part of the same story The UGLY AMERICA!
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Lutherans, and Episcopalians, and Jehovah's Witnesses, and Seventh-Day
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Adventists, and Mormons, and Christian Scientists, and Methodists, and
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>the like can all co-exist more or less peacefully with each other but
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>also with liberal and orthodox Jews, and with Muslims, Buddhists and
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>atheists, here in the U.S.A., then why have Europeans (and Middle
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Eastern) countries been so unsuccessful in evolving similarly tolerant
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>attitudes?   

--------------------Edit--------edit--------Edit------------------------ 


Complete hogs wash.... You been sleeping under a rock or what..?  
I've lived in American and The America i saw was dirty, violent and racist.
There are NO MORE GOOD or BAD people in America then anywhere else.  Its sad 
to see commentary like yours offered without any in depth knowledge about the 
history, problems or the peoples of the area you speak of. Offering a simplisti
c
uninformed answer to an age old problem is part of what got central/eastern Eur
ope
to some of the exact problems it faces today... Americans don't have the ultima
te 
answer. They can't even take care of their own home and neither can you...

While some of what you write is true and regrettable  much of what you of what 
you write is just half truth and ill informed diatribe.  What really triggered 
my response was your obvious Yankee ignorance and misplaced superiority complex
 
regarding world issues that you so poorly address.  Look its easy to criticize 
the past.  Many, many mistakes and evil deeds have been done through out histor
y.  
You start with critique of those tragedies but digress into Yankee self gratifi
cation.  
Shame on you......:(   

With matches in hand your house burns yet you point fingers.  While America sti
nks in 
the same the muck of self indulgence, social decay, urban decay and violence as
 everyone 
else you look to distant shores to point fingers so you can feel better about 
your own.  How small minded...!   

The creation of South American Banana republics and their control were 
discustingly  American. Chile, Honduras Panama etc etc etc.  All DIRTY CIA 
play grounds of the past!  Oh yes America "Land of the free, home of the 
brave".  America Where if you have enough money you are FREE to kill your wife 
and get off claiming persecution.  America where if you have enough money you 
too can rape little children and then buy your freedom  Aghhh…. What a GReaT 
FreeDoM.  America where you are free to hold more money then you could 
possibly use and ignore the sick, injured, old and wretched... But please 
understand I’m not interested in bashing America I just want to remind you 
that, America your shoes are shity too…!  

Lets address Hungary Since i feel somewhat informed...
I ask… How you would feel about tearing away one third of the USA and giving it
 to 
Mexico..?  For the reason that you have so many Hispanics.  Then how would you 
feel if a 
second third of America was given to Canada cause you got so many Anglo-Saxons?
 Pretty 
ridiculous eh..?  Are you getting my drift..? Cause this is what happened to Hu
ngary 
after world war one.  Except Hungary had better than a thousand year historical
 identity
within its borders at that time, unlike the measly 300 odd years of the America
n tragedy.
Just ask an Native american or black man. Funny how you would have others forge
t their 
deep ancient roots but hold such a high regard for such a young and dubious his
tory as 
that of the USA. Seems it only hurts when it happens to you.  You want to know 
why old 
men in cafes drinking their poor coffee talk of better days well dismemberment 
and the 
scattering of ones peoples.  The tearing apart, assassination and assimilation 
of families 
and whole communities is not such a fair price to pay for Hungary just because 
she 
generously settled other nationalities within her borders after years of being 
Europe’s 
Battlefield.  I a violent age Hungary took the brunt of attacks from Mongols an
d Turks 
which served to defended the western way of life that eventually gave birth to 
America.  
Through her actions and sacrifices she became depopulated.  As a result others 
were 
encouraged to settle areas where, NOT families, but whole towns and villages wh
ere wiped 
off the face of the earth.  These people who were settled there were often pers
ecuted 
peoples who found safe harbor in Hungary.  Though I’m Not Much on religion I wo
uld remind 
you that The tolling of noon church bells all over the world is in remembrance 
and 
celebration of the Hungarian sacrifice and ultimate victory over the Turks as t
hey 
threatened the Christian world..  It is a Western celebration.  For better or w
orse America 
would be a much different place if that victory and sacrifice  hadn’t happened 
and if Turks 
ruled Europe in the days of Americas discovery.   What’s Wrong with remembering
 your brave 
past…?  Nothing it seems to me. 

What of the Serbs, Croats, Bosnian’s Albanians, Hungarians and other nationalit
ies with clear 
identities who without so much as a word to their own future were force to assu
me an identity 
not of their choosing. Yugoslavia They call it.... Yes Serbs have done awful th
ings in the name 
of a national identity and so have Croats and Bosnians. But Non of this would h
ave happened if 
not for some moron who thought he knew better and forced unnatural borders.  Ma
ny thousands of 
Russians, Poles, Hungarians, and scores of forgotten peoples of Europe died to 
stop the Mongols.  
How would you feel if Amerika  were Mongol territory..?  Where would you be…?  
Oh yea you have 
to stretch your imagination just a little but there existed a moment in time wh
en it was all 
together possible…!  When the eastern Europeans were all that stood between the
 Holy Roman Empire 
(the western world at the time)and Certain destruction.  So go ahead blame the 
sour old men in 
those wretched cafes drinking there bitter brew of dreams lost, lives destroyed
.  Blame them for 
daring to keep their identity, their bit of pride and  blame them for sadly rem
embering of better 
days….  Then get on your damn knees and thank goodness you exist as you do toda
y because of their 
great sacrifices …
 
The first world war unlike the second world war had no clear bad guy only sides
 and the monarchies 
lined up on one side or the other.  Justice, patience and truth were in short s
upply at the closing of 
that war.  The victors would rule and that was that.  Scientific understanding 
of the make up of 
central and eastern Europe were in even more short supply for the western power
s (the victors by 
default).  What could they think of..?  These people that they barely knew of a
nd cared even less about
Central and eastern Europe.  
Please understand me. I’m NOT trying to blame the west for all of the problems 
in central and eastern 
Europe.  A quick fix Working or not, fair or not, was the order of the day.   W
hat I am saying is 
that the view Americans  know better is silly at best.  The lack of understandi
ng and disdain  in 
the western countries for ethnicity and tribalism  is rooted in the American de
struction and 
subjugation  of the original native tribal inhabitants of America and the ensla
ving of the tribal 
Blacks from Africa.  America the melting pot is more by happenstance then by de
sign and that's for 
sure.  A  melting pot of Fine flavors can be a good thing but can NEVER attain 
the singular fine, 
purity and flavor of the original essence.  This is not enough to justify ethni
c cleansing but it 
also is worthy of survival and may not be understood by a simpleton looking at 
the world from only 
his perspective.  

My feeling is that anything is possible as long as it is respectful of others p
eoples lives and 
well-being.  Old men in cafes exist all over the world but most spend their tim
e remembering the 
pain and joy of their lost lives not planning the genocide of a whole people.  
At the same time we 
have to guard against those that would through violence or trickery gain an adv
antage and enslave us.
Nope there is no easy answer but If we every attain equality and justice for al
l... We will be worthy to rule the 
world  BUT NOT TILL THEN!!!!!!!!!!!

In article >,
Bobbie > wrote:
| I recently moved from New York City to Savannah, GA and cannot get any
| Hungarian food.  Does anyone know of mail order companies that have
| catalogs and will ship to Georgia?
| 
| Thanks.  :)
| 
| --
WHere do you get Hungarian food in NY?
Paprikas Weiss has closed down, and I am without sources for
ingredients.
The russian stores come close for a lot cheaper, but hte
quality is much  much lower.

In article >,
   Qunsheng > wrote:
>Hi, Everyone,
>I am a Chinese and permanent resident of Canada.  I want to learn young and
>well-educated Hungarian woman with deep tradition of morality.  age between
>25-32. If anyone thinks she is very reponsible and has strong family value,
>please reply.  We can talk details through the e-mail in English or in German
>
It might be very difficult to "learn" Hungarian woman. As far as I know there 
are no classes on Hungarian woman in any school in Hungary.:)


Szaszvari Peter
(http://iap11.ethz.ch/users/szp/szp.htm)

Good bye everybody,

It was nice but useless and life is sooooo short.
I am going to unsubscribe this group right now, good bye.

SzP.


Szaszvari Peter
(http://iap11.ethz.ch/users/szp/szp.htm)

In article >,
Istvan Szucs > wrote:
>In article >,
> > wrote:
>,The ones who would are the ones
>| like us, who kept their fingers on the pulse of Hungarian public affairs
>| through close relatives and friends, regular visits, media and now the
>| best of it all, the Internet.
>
>But that is insufficient. (in my opinion). you kept your
>finger on it, but they are IN it. You hear about it, perhaps
>seek out information about it - they live it.
>Look. Every culture has its own dogmas. The american culture
>is not immune to that either. People hwo live here long
>enough start to adopt them in their way of thinking. Nothing
>wrong with it, but it's a way of losing touch. One who lived
>abroad through the last forty years (many of them spent over
>half their lives here) can be sympathetic to Hungary and
>Hungarians, can even understand it - as you understand
>something from a book - but one thing for certain - you
>don't LIVE it.

So what? If they still have their Hungarian citizenship, or if they lost their
citizenship not from their own fault, I think they should vote. Why are you
trying to exclude them? In fact, anybody who pays income tax to the Hungarian
government, or is a citizen, should have the right to meddle in public affairs
of the country, IMHO. Politicians lose touch with reality, yet they get the
right to vote.

Gabor

Keresem Unokatestveremet szuletett Blau Edit, edesanyja Nagy Marika,
edesapja Blau Dezso (vagy Erno). Nagyvaradrol emigralt 1962-ben,
tudomasunk szerint Kaliforniaba, Bonta Andrasne neven.

Unokatestvere, Nagy Katalin Szilagysomlyorol (Erdelybol) keresteti.
Ha valaki ismeri, vagy gondolja hogy tud valamit rola, legyen szives
ertesitsen az alabbi e-mail cimen.

Elore is halas koszonettel,

Szabo Attila

E-mail:    vagy  

Roman Kanala > wrote:

>Some information that might be of interest to whom it may concern:

[much personal stuff about J.G. Frajkor deleted]

Roman, you're now going way beyond defending your own reputation and
embarking on something close to a vendetta. Just remember that people
who insist on throwing mud at others, usually end up with dirty hands.
Let it go already ...

>Just thought this information might be of interest to the Internet 
>community.

No, not at this end.  Why don't you just drop it?

Karl Pollak
Richmond, British Columbia

In article >,
 > wrote:
| Zoltan_Manyoki_HL_SP_PE_DES > wrote:
| >

| Well, Zoltan, I hope you understand the real underlying motivation for
| that stance; it's envy, poor and simple.  The rest is only a thinly
| veiled cover for that envy.

Can only speak for myself. Has nothing to do with envy.

| Most long time Hungarian exiles who lost touch with the home country
| wouldn't bother to vote abroad, anyway.  

Except that many of them have lost touch but don't realize
it, or admit it even to themsleves. THey go as far as claim
that they know better (as a group or individually) and are
as effected by it as people who live home, and in fact those
who live home just mess things up and THEY shoud be the
premier decision makers. 

,The ones who would are the ones
| like us, who kept their fingers on the pulse of Hungarian public affairs
| through close relatives and friends, regular visits, media and now the
| best of it all, the Internet.

But that is insufficient. (in my opinion). you kept your
finger on it, but they are IN it. You hear about it, perhaps
seek out information about it - they live it. 
Look. Every culture has its own dogmas. The american culture
is not immune to that either. People hwo live here long
enough start to adopt them in their way of thinking. Nothing
wrong with it, but it's a way of losing touch. One who lived
abroad through the last forty years (many of them spent over
half their lives here) can be sympathetic to Hungary and
Hungarians, can even understand it - as you understand
something from a book - but one thing for certain - you
don't LIVE it. 


| 
| >Other countries, such as Canada of whom I am a citizen, can afford that 
| >kind of generosity.

Situation of Canada is extremely different than that in
Hungary. The role of immigration is different, the
disconnection is different, etc.
| 
| Not to mention other, smaller countries right in Hungary's
neighborhood.

So you now claim that they are positive examples?
BTW the claim that x does it and so should we - just like
that -	is very weak. It would be _somewhat_ stronger if you
could show that it is to their benefit, but you would still
have to show that we are in the exact same boat for that to
automatically apply to us. So far I am not even convinced that it
is to their benefit either.


Istvan

This is turning out better than I expected!  Exhibits for my case are
turning up under every rock. 

Peter Szaszvari > wrote:
>
>Oh the great West! How can we not see how well they know everything!
>I think taking the advises of western experts Hungary really would not be 
>sinking now, it would not be at all. Being for a considerable time in America 
>you may forget for ever what culture was, and the simple fact that the world 
>is not only a big shopping center decorated with some national colors.
>
>BTW You and the alikes could be any great experts on Hungarian politics (even 
>if you don't want to show this expertee :) it is still unfair to let somebody 
>(like you) to elect when he/she will never suffer the consequences.
>
>Why should you be allowed to experiment your political misunderstandings on 
>Hungarians without paying any cost?
>Find better guinea pigs big expert!

Just a while back I even invited Romanians from s.c.r. to this thread
because there was some complaint there about the relationship between
their diaspora and Bucharest.  After reading this, I'm sure they'll find
their problems miniscule in comparison.

Thanks to Peter for providing such a great exhibit to my case.

Joe

The Yugoslav Constitutional Court annulled the referendum
result due to irregularities in the ballot.

In article >,
Johanne L. Tournier  > wrote:
| Szia, mindenkinek!
[...]

| I have been following this discussion with great interest, as I am a dual
| citizen (U.S. and Canada) who has resided primarily in Canada for the last
| 19 years. I regularly vote in elections in both countries and do not feel
| that there is any contradiction in doing so. 


That wasn't exactly my claim... I think if you spent  your
time split in Canada and the US it would be perfectly
reasonable. I also agree with you in what ou say in the next
paragraph.
 
Of course, it may be somewhat
| easier to keep an eye on goings-on in the States from Canada than on Hungary
| from anywhere in North America, as it, along with the rest of Eastern and
| Central Europe, is pretty well ignored for the most part by the mainstream
| North American media.

.. However, I certainly feel able to vote on the
| candidates for national office in the States, because I do follow
| developments in the country and am usually familiar with the candidates'
| positions on the issues. I would think that a Hungarian citizen resident
| abroad would be just as capable of following the events in Hungary and
| voting knowledgeably for the candidates there. Especially since there are
| many Hungarians who may be abroad for only a short time. There is absolutely
| no valid reason for denying such people the right to vote in their own countr
y.

1) They have the right to vote IN their own country. 
2) I think that the US and Canadian culture is not as
different as the culture (experience.. etc) between Hungary
and the US. Furthermore the people we would allow to vote
from the US would be a lot more disconnected (even if they
ARE informed - and I don't know what percentage of them are
even well informed) then a Canadian working or living in the
States. Most Hungarian immigrants left a very different
Hungary then the one they would vote in/for. Keeping up with
events and talking to people, or being home for a few weeks
every few yeras - in my opinion is insufficient to bridge a
25 or 40 year gap, which involved a huge change in culture,
attitude and a lot of other things. I don't know if
Hungarians have a common goal, but I don't think it should
be defined by those who form their ideas based on their
experience living in Hungary 40 years ago, and living in a
North American culture ever since.

Istvan

Gabor Barsai > wrote:
>
>So what? If they still have their Hungarian citizenship, or if they lost their
>citizenship not from their own fault, I think they should vote. Why are you
>trying to exclude them? In fact, anybody who pays income tax to the Hungarian
>government, or is a citizen, should have the right to meddle in public affairs
>of the country, IMHO. Politicians lose touch with reality, yet they get the
>right to vote.

Attaboy, Gabor!  Good to see that my constant chastizing you wasn't
all for nothing. ;-)

Joe

(Paul Zapletal) wrote:

>In other words, if anybody does not agree with Ms. Szurek political views,
>( preferably on 
>Slovakia) then that person is "SICK".  She wishes she could "shake
>someone's head, 
>or  smash a beer bottle on it as someone suggested" as part of her therapy.

Rez a rubaj do krve ...


>In her advertisement in - alt.education.disabled newsgroup, on June
>25, 1996  
>Ms. Szurek stated: (please note the last words of the quote)  
>....
>My experience includes working with physically and mentally challenged
>children and adults, persons with developmental or learning disabilities, 
>or head injuries." 

Another case of "birds of a feather ..." ??

Karl Pollak
Richmond, British Columbia
Visit  http://www.frasevalley.com/routes

In article >,
Istvan Szucs > wrote:
>In article >,
>Gabor Barsai > wrote:
>| In article >,
>| Istvan Szucs > wrote:
>| >In article >,
>| > > wrote:
>|
>| So what? If they still have their Hungarian citizenship, or if they lost the
ir
>| citizenship not from their own fault, I think they should vote. Why are you
>| trying to exclude them?
>
>
>I have outlined some of my reasons. Please address them if you want
>to discuss them, instead   of just ignoring them.

I think I did. They are still citizens of the country, thus why deny them the
right to vote? To me, that is the basic issue. Or, are you going on the path of
Wally Keeler, who determines who can represent some culture based on his
personal likes and dislikes; ie. I don't like the way they live, think...etc.,
thus they can't represent that culture or thus they can't vote? To me, an
extrapolation of this would be to deny, say gypsies, the right to vote, since
they don't live the Hungarian reality, either. Or say, the ethnic Romanians,
since they live in a different culture. To me, what you say is very
exclusionary.
IMHO, a better criteria than just that "they are living in a
different culture" or that "they are not living in Hungarian reality" is
needed, since these are very subjective.
Perhaps a better argument for voting suspension may be:
1, They don't suffer the consequences.

or

2, They haven't spent 60 days in Hungary over the last 5 years. (Or make up
your own numbers.)

For 1, it's true that the outside voter won't suffer the consequences, but this
to me implies that the outside voter, according to you, intentionally votes for
the worst (which may or may not be true). I don't think this is enough reason
to deny them the right to vote.

For 2, I think this is probably the best criteria to deny expatriates the right
to vote. If you can't make enough time to spend a few days in Hungary, then
tough. Your voting rights will be suspended.

Gabor

In article >,  > wrote:
| Istvan Szucs > wrote:
| >
| >All I said was that- in my opinion - there is a huge
| >difference between being informed and living a reality. 
| 
| It looks like another of those fruitless debates with you, but since 
| you are so representative of a certain mindset in and fresh out of
| Hungary, here we go again ...


That depends on what you mean by fruit. If you mean that I
will bow down and say you were right with no evidence, then
you bet it's gonna be fruitless. But let me not guess. What
do you mean by fruitful/fruitless?
 
| As to the subject, living in reality does not make one see better the way 
| out of that reality.

That's actually not true. Seeing something from afar does
not allow you to see the complexity of people's feelings,
goals and problems. It encourages oversimplistic answers to
problems you see from far and from one perspective.

| 
| >BTW You mentioned some sort of jealousy, as the reason
| >for the antipathy against emigrees who live in the USA.
| >Since currently I live in the USA as well - how can you 
| >say that I would have such jealousy?
| 
| It's obvious that your mentality hasn't changed much during your short
| stay here. 

5 years. Short? Perhaps. Certainly shorter then the 30 you
spent here and away from home that clouds your vision.

 But given the fact that you were subject of brain washing
| under Kadar's soft Communism much longer than the likes of me, you might
| never change your attitude.

Yes Joe rule me! Tell me what I want, and what my goals
are. I desperately need your objective advice, and I am
speaking of all poor brainwashed Hungarians who cannot think
for themselves, and need you as a leader and decision
maker. (You are the one who talked about the misconception
that Hungarian emigrants have a know it all attitude.. do
you still wonder why?)


| 
| >Yet they are the ones who are affected primarily by the
| >decisions made. 
| 
| So what?  Why is this only consideration in Hungary and a handful of
| other countries? 

Since when do you think that the Slovaks and the Romanians
are doing such a great job that we should follow them? Since
when do you want us to copy foreign examples without
consideration and evidence that it works, and works for us
as well?

 Why do they have this default assumption that a
| citizen abroad is bound to vote more irresponsibly than
one at home?

I don't have that assumption, but if someone at home votes
irresponsibly it is them who will directly suffer from their
bad choice. That is not true of emigrants.

| What if those citizens plan to return home and want to make sure that
| it will be a home worth to return to? 

Return home and vote.

| Or what if they still have loved
| ones there and want them to live in a country worth to
live in?

Then let them make the decisions for themselves.

| >And you want them to go somewhere else then they are
| >currently going. So what you are claiming here that you (or
| >Hungarian Americans) should have the control instead of
| >Hungarians in Hungary,
| 
| This is a typical falsehood and misrepresentation you are known to
| engage in debates here.  Having a legitimate desire for a voting
| franchise by Hungarian citizens abroad is interpreted by you as having
| the desire to control Hungary!  Do you really think that the diaspora
| vote would be that substantial in the total vote?  You
must be joking!

Of course it is control. Why else would you want to vote
then to be part of the decision making process. You say that
emigrants should have some control (as many as the number of
votes they hold). I say they should have none.

| >because somehow folks in Hungary are
| >making decisions that you don't agree with.
| 
| Why, what is voting about? Not about competing interests and about
| platforms that differ from each other? 

Sure.. but if your interests and platforms are different from those who
live home and who will live with the decision you make then your voice should
not effect the decisions that they have to live with.

| 
| > WHat more do you
| >need to  show that there is a discrepancy between your views
| >and those at home.
| 
| You bet I want to show it!  I think time has shown who was right and who
| was wrong.

Nope. Time did not show anything of that sort. First of all
your ideas are untested,only one half of the test has been
conducted, secondly here once again you are oversimplifying
the issue which is pretty common for those who look at
things from afar.
 
| 
| > Your opinion sounds condescending and
| >elitist to say the least. This "I'll tell you what you want"
| >is part of the reason I think people IN Hungary should make
| >decisions for themselves.
| 
| And this is just an expression of somebody who deep-down knows he is
| wrong, but would not admit it.  

Oh so yo uare an expert of mind reading too... How unfair to
think that you act like a know-it-all.

Instead, he wants to cricify the
| messenger.  Those old Hungarian attitudes still prevail: "we know
| better what to do and don't need any outside advise."  How is this
| different than "Extra Hungariam non est vita, si est vita,
non est ita"?

Very.. I never said that you shouldn't have a right to
express your views, that you should not be consulted. You
just should not have vote - or control. You can convince
folks at home of whatever your agenda is. You should be able
to speak freely. You just should not be able to have a vote.
People in  Hungary should be the ones who will consider your
advice and accept it / reject it and vote accordingly.



| 
| >Ilk? Third world status? ANd you claim to be in touch?
| 
| You have more of a problem than I thought.  It's obvious that you are
| the one out of touch.  Haven't you noticed that Hungary's economy's
| getting to be the laughing stock of the world?

No.. what papers are you reading?
I can name contrary sources at any time.

Typicky Slovensky Narod,Jeden mudrejsi nez druhy,ale zrat medzi sebou sa nepres
tanu 
a zavidiet jeden druhemu tiez nie. Slovak som ale od Slovaka nikdy nic neocakav
am.
Life's too short... just enjoy it Posraty to narod,nienadarmo maju Slovaci dvoj
ity 
kriz vo vlajke...... Look at yourself... And I don't want to hear from you 
anything,is it clear,let me live my life the way I want it.

Istvan Szucs > wrote:
>
>That's actually not true. Seeing something from afar does
>not allow you to see the complexity of people's feelings,
>goals and problems. It encourages oversimplistic answers to
>problems you see from far and from one perspective.

Yes, I see how Bokros & Co. considered the people's feelings.
And they sure live there.

>5 years. Short? Perhaps. Certainly shorter then the 30 you
>spent here and away from home that clouds your vision.

And as we know, the Kadar regime was very good in providing people
with clear vision.  You are a living proof of that.

>Yes Joe rule me! Tell me what I want, and what my goals
>are. I desperately need your objective advice, and I am
>speaking of all poor brainwashed Hungarians who cannot think
>for themselves, and need you as a leader and decision
>maker. (You are the one who talked about the misconception
>that Hungarian emigrants have a know it all attitude.. do
>you still wonder why?)

Let's file this away as exhibit #2 and label it "Projection".

>are doing such a great job that we should follow them? Since
>when do you want us to copy foreign examples without
>consideration and evidence that it works, and works for us
>as well?

Well, does following "the Hungarian way" work? Why are you here then and
not there?

>I don't have that assumption, but if someone at home votes
>irresponsibly it is them who will directly suffer from their
>bad choice. That is not true of emigrants.

Of course your type who lives there can still vote irresponsibly because
they also don't have to live with the consequences, right? They just
take their suitcases and go to another country until that gets too hot
for them.  So what's the difference?
 
>Return home and vote.

This is getting to be a bit worn advise. 

>Of course it is control. Why else would you want to vote
>then to be part of the decision making process. You say that
>emigrants should have some control (as many as the number of
>votes they hold). I say they should have none.

Your opinion is duly noted and filed as exhibit #3 under the Hungarian
title: Kirekeszto".

>Nope. Time did not show anything of that sort. First of all
>your ideas are untested,only one half of the test has been
>conducted, 

OK, let's just agree than that the evidence is overwhelming that Hungary
has managed to dig herself into an ever increasing hole with no relief
in sight.  But no need to worry; Szucs & Co. are still selfassured that
they know better how to dig holes than anybody else.
 
>secondly here once again you are oversimplifying
>the issue which is pretty common for those who look at
>things from afar.

The KISS princple has something to be said for it.

>No.. what papers are you reading?
>I can name contrary sources at any time.

Just comparing the growth rate of neighboring countries would tell a lot.
Then there is this permanent inflation rate ruining any incentives to
save and invest.  How about the rapid decline in population?
These are not signs of robust health.

Joe

In article >,  (Peter Szaszvari) 
writes:
>...
>Hi Stupid,
>it is so good to meet somebody from the same kind.
>In my infinite stupidity I call everybody foreigner who permanently lives 
>abroad even if he is a citizen of Hungary.
>...

Just a question:

What, in your opinion, is permanent?  If a Hungarian citizen is not at home for
 a couple years (because of work, study or travel around the wold or _whatever_
), is that permanent enough to be denied the right to vote.  Don't come with th
e nonsense, that "they just have to go home for that".  There _are_ acceptable 
reasons for anybody not to be at home at the time of the elections.

Other countries, such as Canada of whom I am a citizen, can afford that kind of
 generosity.

Zoltan

In article >,
    () wrote:

>
>That's the problem. They can't see the forest from the trees.
>That's why they keep going back to what they are familiar with, such as
>electing the same Commies back to power, instead of trying something new for
>a change.  In Hungary's history the catalysts for progress were always

You Hungarian expert with your fingers on the pulse of Hungarian public 
affairs! 

This really shows how far you are from reality.
The "Commies" were elected because there was no better choice. And they will 
be elected again and again until smebody comes with something better.
Hungarians are not idiots and that was exactly the reason why MDF could fool 
them only for one cycle with their cheap potatoes.

>those who spent some time in the West and upon their return they tried
>to implement what they learned abroad. Be it craftsmen, artists, or
>noblemen, for that matter.  You and your ilk are trying to deny the same
>process and we all see the results of it: a rapid sinking of Hungary
>from the 2nd world status to the 3rd world level.
>
>Congratulations!
>
>Joe

Oh the great West! How can we not see how well they know everything!
I think taking the advises of western experts Hungary really would not be 
sinking now, it would not be at all. Being for a considerable time in America 
you may forget for ever what culture was, and the simple fact that the world 
is not only a big shopping center decorated with some national colors.

BTW You and the alikes could be any great experts on Hungarian politics (even 
if you don't want to show this expertee :) it is still unfair to let somebody 
(like you) to elect when he/she will never suffer the consequences.

Why should you be allowed to experiment your political misunderstandings on 
Hungarians without paying any cost?
Find better guinea pigs big expert!

SzP.


Szaszvari Peter
(http://iap11.ethz.ch/users/szp/szp.htm)