Did the journalist see Gyula Horn's dissertation and if so what were the
details thereof?
I am not sure just how accessable dissertations are for instance at the
various universities in Australia to persons who can not show a
"legitimate" interest in them. Dissertations are definitely accessable to
researchers in the specific field but not as readily to a person coming in
off the street.
It is interesting to see where Torgyan's interests lay. Of course if he was
writing a dissertation in 1954 it had to toe the party line.
At 20:19 12/8/97 -0400, you wrote:
>        A few days ago I read an interesting piece of news. Some time ago a
>journalist wanted to read the 1954 J.D. dissertation of Jozsef Torgyan, head
>of the Smallholders' Party, and the dissertation of Gyula Horn that earned
>him the now defunct title of "kandidatus." The former's degree was awarded
>by ELTE (Eotvos Lorand Tudomany Egyetem) and the latter by the Hungarian
>Academy of Sciences. The former dissertation has been stored at the law
>school library of ELTE and the latter in the Academy's library. At both
>places the journalist was denied of access. But Hungarian journalists are
>learning: our journalist was not satisfied with the answers he received. He
>went to the office of the ombundsman responsible for access to data and the
>ombudsman expressed an opinion (not binding) that dissertations are--just
>like in this country--copyrighted and deserve copyright protection, but
>authors of dissertations don't have the right to deny access to
>dissertations written by them. Although the ombudsman's ruling didn't have
>the force of law, the library of the law school subsequently allowed the
>journalist to look at the dissertation.
>        For those of us who have been living abroad this whole incident
>sounds a bit strange. A dissertation which cannot be read? It is almost a
>contradiction in terms. Dissertations are written for others interested in
>the topic to read. But, of course, the librarians/bureaucrats of these
>institutions handle politicians differently from ordinary human beings. They
>seem to be defending the politicians' "good reputation," and at the same
>time saving their own hides from political repercussions. Old reflexes die
hard!
>        So far I was not terribly surprised, and I was happy that Hungarian
>democracy is beginning to function: after all, a journalist was brave enough
>to go for a formal ruling on this subject. This is exactly what journalists
>are supposed to do. What really surprised me was that in a
>Hungarian-language discussion group where younger Hungarians are represented
>very heavily this "secrecy" of dissertations didn't seem to make a great
>impression. In fact, there were several people who felt that somehow
>individual rights were wronged by allowing access to such a public piece of
>intellectual property as a dissertation!
>        As to the outcome. Mr. Torgyan's dissertation was nothing but a
>piece of propaganda a la 1954. For some strange reason he wrote on
>"international relations." A rather strange topic for a lawyer. The upshot
>of his dissertation was that countries with internal difficulties often
>resort to international adventures. This was definitely the case in the
>nineteenth- and twentieth-century Russia. However, Mr. Torgyan's example of
>Hungary in 1941 was a very bad example. The rest of the dissertation seemed
>to have been praising the Soviet Union for liberating Hungary and for its
>generosity toward the liberated countries.
>        I would be curious what you think of this incident. ESB
>
>
>
>

Eva Balogh wrote:

> engineering. This is what you are talking about. However, the humanities and
> the law, the ones I am taking about, are something else. And yes, I hold up
> that the law they taught between 1950 and 1954 wasn't much. History wasn't
> much either. And please, stop telling me what I can and what I cannot say. I
> find it tiresome. Eva Balogh

   I must take issue with the above statement.  I have aquired my
very strong interest in law, government, and jurisprudence in the
50's when I have started  my studies at the  School of Government
and Law in Pecs.The laws of Hungary were still based on Roman Law
and those principles were studied very diligently.  It used to be
called the "killer course" in my day.  And people were failing it
left and right. And I am able to compare,  because I have studied
law at the University of Vienna also.
   Besides, the study  and practice of law  is different only be-
cause the laws vary between countries.  Therefore,  comparison is
mostly useless. Just because we don't like something doesn't mean
it is bad. The Government part of the studies may have been a bit
shaky, but again,  such comparison will  lead to bias.  My law is
better than yours leads nowhere.
   And I have never experienced,  in my class,  that somebody has
received a passing grade because of his/her origin.I have strong-
ly believed it then as I do now that this was mostly a myth.  One
must remember that exams were taken  orally and in groups of 4-5.
Therefore, rather difficult to cover up.
                                         Amos

At 11:09 AM -0400 8/13/97, E.S. Balogh wrote:
I know it from personal
>experience because in the same year Mr. Torgyan graduated I began my studies
>at ELTE. Half of my classmates didn't finish gymnasium but were educated at
>specialized schools for working-class and peasant children where four years
>of material was crammed into one. (Later they extended the course of study
>to two years.) Their admission to college was guaranteed which made our
>chances of admission even less, especially if you consider that social
>background weighed heavily in the admission process. (I think white-collar
>workers' children could constitute only 10 percent of the total student
>population!) Some of these people were very smart but most of them were not.
>To fail them was a practical impossibility. This was the situation at the
>best university of the country, in the faculty of arts. I would have been
>surprised if it was terribly different in the law school. Perhaps worse,
>given the subject matter. But perhaps someone among us have first-hand
>experience on this subject. In any case, Torgyan's law degree is not worth
>much. However, he is a clever man in a sly way, and as far as I know he was
>a successful lawyer before the change of regime.
>        Eva Balogh

I went to the Law School of ELTE between 1954 and 1956 after spending one
year at the Law School at Szeged. I do not recall any problem with students
of peasant and working class origin, in fact, most of the students were of
middle class origin. There was no thesis requirement on the undergraduate
level. The quality of education, as Eva correctly pointed out, was very
poor. The only time I was at a court when three students were tried and
condemned to three years for cracking jokes at the expense of Rakosi. We
simply memorized textbooks and occasionally attended lectures. At the
seminars the assistant professor simply  explained the lecture in details.
There were no mock trials, debates on points-of-law. There was no
inter-action, challenge, etc. You could become a good lawyer in Hungary -
after university and only in certain areas, mostly civil law. Hungary at
that time was basically a police state, a lawless society.

Peter I. Hidas
Montreal

At 06:56 PM 8/12/97 -0700, Gabor Fencsik wrote:

About Torgyan's dissertation and Lovas's attack on Vasarhelyi:

>It does explain why Mr Lovas, Torgyan's personal attack journalist and
>hatchetman par excellence, felt it necessary a few weeks ago to launch
>a preemptive attack on Miklos Vasarhelyi, head of the Hungarian office
>of the Soros Foundation.

        Fascinating! Budapest might be a big city, but everybody knows
everybody in certain circles, and I am sure that Gabor is right that Torgyan
and his entourage must have known about the impending case before the ombudsman
.

>Of course, the dissertation
>affair is pretty innocent stuff compared to the accusations (so far
>unsubstantiated) of collaboration between Torgyan and the Communist
>secret police, or Torgyan's role (far better substantiated) in the
>judicial murders of 1956-58.

        Indeed! Once I took the trouble of counting the death sentences
metted out at Gusztav Tutsek's court, where Comrade Torgyan was employed at
the time. The number was over 30. Mostly young men in their twenties.
Sickening reading.
        As far as his role as possible secret service agent is concerned as
things stand Torgyan has his envelope from the judges concerning his
activities. For the time being he has said nothing but promised to come out
in the open in a week or two. I assume that the envelope contained some bad
news for Mr. Torgyan and that's why the delay: to figure out what to do and
devise some strategy dealing with the revelations.
        As far as Torgyan's so-called dissertation is concerned I have less
sympathy for Mr. Torgyan than the commentaries from Hungary indicate exists
in the country. Sure enough: awful things were written in those days by very
ordinary, decent people. Elementary school children, high school kids,
university students and adults as well. Reading some of the published
historical works written in those days make you cry or laugh, depending on
your mood. It was practically compulsory to include the name of Stalin, the
glorious Red Army, the Great October Revolution in every piece of writing
regardless of the work's contents. However, there were gradations of
awfulness and someone with a good ear for the times can easily discern the
real man/woman behind the mask.

        I found the topic rather odd for a lawyer: it sure sounds like
international relations to me. It would be very interesting to read quite a
few dissertations written at the same law school in the same year and
compare Mr. Torgyan's to others. I think that would be quite revealing. (Too
bad that the journalist who brought the case to the ombudsman doesn't read
this list. I am giving him such a good ideas (;)) It would be also
interesting to see where his classmates ended up: I bet that a job at the
Budapesti Fougyeszseg (Chief Prosecutor's Office) was considered to be a
plum. I have the feeling that with a little effort and good investigate
journalism an awful lot of things could be discovered about Dr. Torgyan. I
am hoping that the journalist in question doesn't stop here but goes a
little further in investigating Dr. Torgyan's past.

        And one more general observation. Academic standards have never
before or after were so low as in those days. I know it from personal
experience because in the same year Mr. Torgyan graduated I began my studies
at ELTE. Half of my classmates didn't finish gymnasium but were educated at
specialized schools for working-class and peasant children where four years
of material was crammed into one. (Later they extended the course of study
to two years.) Their admission to college was guaranteed which made our
chances of admission even less, especially if you consider that social
background weighed heavily in the admission process. (I think white-collar
workers' children could constitute only 10 percent of the total student
population!) Some of these people were very smart but most of them were not.
To fail them was a practical impossibility. This was the situation at the
best university of the country, in the faculty of arts. I would have been
surprised if it was terribly different in the law school. Perhaps worse,
given the subject matter. But perhaps someone among us have first-hand
experience on this subject. In any case, Torgyan's law degree is not worth
much. However, he is a clever man in a sly way, and as far as I know he was
a successful lawyer before the change of regime.
        Eva Balogh

At 11:16 AM 8/13/97 +1000, Denes Bogsanyi wrote:
>Did the journalist see Gyula Horn's dissertation and if so what were the
>details thereof?

        Yes, according to the Magyar Narancs (received yesterday).
Apparently it is decent and it is about the economy of Yugoslavia. It was
accepted in 1977.


>I am not sure just how accessable dissertations are for instance at the
>various universities in Australia to persons who can not show a
>"legitimate" interest in them. Dissertations are definitely accessable to
>researchers in the specific field but not as readily to a person coming in
>off the street.

        I would be more surprised that in Australia only people with
"legitimate interest" could read dissertations approved by universities.
Anyone can read dissertations in western countries. Or at least, I have
never heard of any such country where you cannot.

        Eva Balogh

At 12:31 AM 8/13/97 +0200, Miklos Hoffmann wrote:
>S or G Farkas wrote:
>>
>> At 05:19 PM 8/12/97 -0400, Jeliko quotes the latest issue of the "Oil and
>> Gas Journal"
 ......
>> Also, didn't those foreign investors know in advance what they were getting
>> into? Did any of the rules change?


>They thought, they knew. They bought run down companies, mostly with
>high losses and high debts. "Retail" prices were way below the "normal"
>energy market and the utilities were piling up losses. They were said,
>that the price system will grant a return on investment of at least 8%.
>They were also said that - at least in the case of the power - cost
>covering prices will be introduced by Jan 1,97. A year ago, this was
>postponed by the government to April 1.

        On the basis of my own readings on the subject Miklos Hoffmann's
description of the state of affairs is quite accurate. The international
financial community was somewhat taken aback when the government went back
on its word and postponed the necessary price hikes.

>Just one exemple : interests on debts due to accumulated losses
>are not being recognized as costs by the price authority.

        Often I am simply amazed at the unbusiness-like ways of handling
business in Eastern Europe even today. Not recognizing interests on debts
is, I gather, rather unheard of in business circles. But here is another
example I just read about. I read in an interview with the head of MAV
(Hungarian State Railways) that until now there was the following sanctioned
practice: the company using the facilities of the railways had to unload the
railroad cars within three hours after being informed of the shipment's
arrival. However, if the MAV was late there were no sanctions whatsoever.
Or, until recently the MAV wouldn't carry such items as stone or gravel;
only items which can be counted. Considering that the MAV is losing money
right and left it is high time that some of these outdated rules had been
abolished.
        Eva Balogh

>
>Rules, as disclosed in the tender documentation, were changed.
>
>What I am not quit clear about in Jelikos "release" is whether
>it was an annual price hike or a quarterly one. Due to the high
>inflation rate it was envisaged to re-assess pricing quartely.
>MKH
>
>

According to the Magyar Hirlap (August 14, Thursday) Torgyan will
have a press conference tomorrow at which he will make the announcement
concerning the findings of the lustration committee. That ought to be
interesting!!
        Meanwhile, again according to Magyar Hirlap, those recruited by the
secret service usually reported as well. You may recall that Istvan Csurka
although admitted that he was recruited denied that he ever reported. The
Magyar Hirlap talked to Jozsef Horvath who had held an important position in
the III/III section of the Interior Ministry, where the agents reported on
their fellow citizens.
        Eva Balogh

At 10:43 PM 8/13/97 +0200, Miklos Hoffmann wrote:
>E.S. Balogh wrote:
>>
>>        And one more general observation. Academic standards have never
>> before or after were so low as in those days. I know it from personal
>> experience because in the same year Mr. Torgyan graduated I began my studies
>> at ELTE.
>
>This may have been true for ELTE, >the best university of the
>country< ( as stated ). I did believe the same about about
>BME until ( after 56 ) the first BME students entered final exams at one
>of the finest German universities. It turned out, that - quite a number
>of top capacities still being around - the BME managed to foster
>the atmosphere of challange and quality. The Hungarians made an
>excelent show - and they were surprised themselves.
>Today, I am no longer quite so sure about the present standards. The
>appear to me to be lower than then. Mind you, it is not the system to be
>credited for this. It was the personnel maintaining higy pro-
>fessional standards.

        It was possible that it was different in the sciences and
engineering. This is what you are talking about. However, the humanities and
the law, the ones I am taking about, are something else. And yes, I hold up
that the law they taught between 1950 and 1954 wasn't much. History wasn't
much either. And please, stop telling me what I can and what I cannot say. I
find it tiresome. Eva Balogh

S or G Farkas wrote:
>
> At 03:27 PM 8/12/97 -0700, Sandy wrote:
>
> >2.      If there weren't a market (the almighty dollar) it wouldn't exist.
> >
> >3.      If people truly valued the worth, dignity and sacredness of each
 other,
> >it wouldn't exist.
>
> Right, see today's AP news, the first paragraph of a news story is:
>
> "A new little French restaurant in town is serving up mild sadomasochism
> with the food, offering such fare as a birthday paddling, boot leaning or
> the chance to eat from a dog bowl at the feet of a whip-wielding mistress."
Talkin4( or rather writing ) about Budapest or - rather Big Apple?
Miklss

S or G Farkas wrote:
>

> >Talkin4( or rather writing ) about Budapest or - rather Big Apple?
>
> It is New York, there are some thongs where Budapest just can't compete.
>
> Gabor D. Farkas
Tot asa...
Miklss

Darren Purcell wrote:
>
> Sandy's comments are very true, but I find it interesting that the spaces
> and locations of this sex moves to places where regulations and mores may
> not be as well established. The other story I have heard is that Germans
> fly down to Budapest and fly back the same day, for one purpose only. I
> don't know if this is true, but a Delta attendant told me that one. Get on
> in Berlin, get off in Budapest (pun intended) and go back to the German
> wife that afternoon. I guess Lufthansa is making a killing off of this.

Well, I am not sure about Berlin. I mostly used Hamburg, Munich or
Frankfurt. I am an FT of both Lufthansa and MALEV and had plenty of
opportunity to observe. Some male or female tourist groups, indeed.
Most of them look innocent. Many couples. Quite often 8 - in words
eight - passengers in Lufthasa4s small Canadair jets...
And in Budapest, the <ladies> try to approach you primarily in
( utterly unbritish, rather american ) English...
I thought, German sex-tourism was booming in the Far East.
>
> Is pornography universal?

As a branch of the oldest profession?
MKH

E.S. Balogh wrote:
>
>        And one more general observation. Academic standards have never
> before or after were so low as in those days. I know it from personal
> experience because in the same year Mr. Torgyan graduated I began my studies
> at ELTE.

This may have been true for ELTE, >the best university of the
country< ( as stated ). I did believe the same about about
BME until ( after 56 ) the first BME students entered final exams at one
of the finest German universities. It turned out, that - quite a number
of top capacities still being around - the BME managed to foster
the atmosphere of challange and quality. The Hungarians made an
excelent show - and they were surprised themselves.
Today, I am no longer quite so sure about the present standards. The
appear to me to be lower than then. Mind you, it is not the system to be
credited for this. It was the personnel maintaining higy pro-
fessional standards.

<snip>
> population!) Some of these people were very smart but most of them were not.
> To fail them was a practical impossibility.

At the BME, we had a shake out of more than 50%.

> This was the situation at the
> best university of the country, in the faculty of arts. I would have been
> surprised if it was terribly different in the law school. Perhaps worse,
> given the subject matter.

I met excellent Hungarian lawyers in Hungary ( and outside ) of
an only somewhat lower age than Torgyan.

But perhaps someone among us have first-hand
> experience on this subject.

> In any case, Torgyan's law degree is not worth
> much.

I do not Dr. Torgyan. However, I strongly advise to be carefull with
statements like this!

> However,  <snip>  as far as I know he was
> a successful lawyer before the change of regime.
MKH

The following article is in today's online Globe and Mail at:
"http://www.globeandmail.ca/docs/news/19970813/GlobeFront/UGYPSN.html".

I'm glad that Canadians are finding out about the miserable treatment
given to East European Gypsies.  Many will be shocked by the racism.
Hopefully, pressure will be put on East European governments and society
to clean up their act if they want to join the European Union.
_________________________________
Gypsies eyeing Canada as haven

TV show sparks immigration rush

Wednesday, August 13, 1997
By John Chipman and Chad Skelton
The Globe and Mail
John Chipman is a freelance writer based in Prague and Chad Skelton is a
Globe and Mail reporter.

With reports from freelancer David Rocks, The Associated Press, The
Canadian Press and Reuters.

Tired of being the victims of racism in the Czech Republic, thousands of
Gypsies are ready to sell their belongings and move to Canada, many
apparently encouraged by a Czech television program that portrayed this
country as a haven for Romanies.

One small town in northern Moravia has even offered to pay for their
tickets just to get them on the first plane out of the Czech Republic.

The documentary program, broadcast on the private Czech television station
Nova last week, painted a picture of Canada as an easy place for Gypsies
to seek refugee status.

"I haven't slept for a week," exclaimed an excited Klara Goborova, a Gypsy
with five children from Opava, near Prague.

Speaking to the Czech paper Mlada fronta Dnes, she said that if the state
wants to pay for the trip, almost everyone will leave.  "There is racism
here, and our children can find a better life in Canada.  We have nothing
to lose."

Since the program, called Na Vlastni Oci (roughly translated as "in your
own eyes"), was broadcast, the Canadian embassy in Prague said it has
received several hundred telephone calls, mostly from the Gypsies in the
eastern city of Ostrava who mistakenly thought Canada has a special asylum
program for them.

"[TV Nova] basically showed that if you arrive in Canada, from that
moment, you get money from the government, they take care of your
accommodation and your chances of getting refugee status or a job are very
high," Lucie Cermakova, an embassy spokeswoman, said yesterday.

"But, in fact, it's a very complicated administrative process and you have
to fulfill a lot of requirements."

A Canadian official in Ottawa said 189 claims for refugee status were
filed by Czech citizens in 1996 and 302 in the first six months of 1997.
In the 18 months ended June 30, 74 of the claimants had been deported to
the Czech Republic and more could follow as they go through the tribunal
process.

Meanwhile, airline officials are reporting a rush of reservations to
Canada.

Peter Plocek, a spokesman for the Czech airline CSA, said seats in economy
class for flights to Toronto and Montreal are booked until the end of
October. Another CSA employee said the airline was selling three times as
many tickets to Canada than normal.

British Airways also reported a sharp increase. "In the past two days,
we've had a huge increase of ticket sales on flights to Canada," said
Simona Holecova, a British Airways official in the Czech Republic.

Rene Mercier, a spokesman for the Canadian Immigration Department, said
the department is not sending out any special alert to customs officials
to look out for flights from the Czech Republic. That is because there is
little officials can do to stop Czechs from entering the country because
they can visit the country without a visa.

Mr. Mercier said the government is not considering bringing back a visa
requirement. "That's one option, but that's not the preferred one at this
time," he said.

The picture of Canada provided by the Czech TV program "was not exactly
close to the truth" as to how refugee applicants are treated, he said.

Mr. Mercier said the government is concerned for the welfare of the
Gypsies. The Immigration Department is focusing on the situation in the
hope of correcting "the misinformation that seems to have happened in the
Czech Republic."

Immigration officials in Vienna, where Czech immigration applications are
processed, are on their way to Prague to clarify Canada's policy on
refugees.

The cheapest return ticket to Toronto from Prague costs 17,500 koruna,
about the equivalent of $740 or two months average salary in the Czech
Republic.

It is not surprising that many Gypsies want to leave.

Although living standards for Czechs have improved during the nearly eight
years since communism ended, most Romanies feel that their lot has
actually worsened. Life was not easy under communism, but at least the
Romany were guaranteed basic housing and employment. Today, they have a
hard time getting either.

"This country has a higher standard of living, but Romany don't because
they don't have the opportunity," said Emil Scuka, head of the Romany
Civic Initiative, a political party with no current representation in
parliament.

"The worst is that both sides are starting to get used to the racism that
is here. Romanies are starting to get a sort of immunity to it, while
Czechs simply think this is way things are supposed to be."

Romanies, called "blacks" by ethnic Czechs because of their darker skin,
face racism at nearly every turn.

While a few have managed to integrate into Czech society, restaurants
routinely refuse to serve them, teachers shunt their children off to
special schools where they recieve little education and employers will
hire them for only the lowest-level jobs that no one else is willing to
take.

Unemployment among Romany men is estimated to be 30 to 50 per cent in a
country where the overall jobless rate is about 3 per cent.

The Czech Republic has been criticized by the international community for
its treatment of Romanies, and Canada's official position is that there is
racism toward Gyspies in that country.

However, Nora Jurkovicova, a spokesman with the Czech embassy in Ottawa,
said that while there are isolated cases of discrimination against Gypsies
in her country, the government has taken several measures in the past few
years to try to reduce discrimination against people of Romany background.

The measures include government support of Romany cultural groups and
hate- crimes legislation introduced last year -- similar to Canada's --
that establishes tougher sentences for those who commit crimes against
others because of their race, she said.

The exact number of Gypsies in the Czech Republic is difficult to
determine. A census in 1991 included a voluntary question allowing
citizens to identify their ethnic background; about 33,000 identified
themselves as Romany. However, their number is estimated to be as high as
300,000. The overall population of the Czech Republic is roughly 10
million.

The mayor of Marianske Hory, a town east of the Czech capital, Prague,
caused shockwaves on Monday when she said her town council would help pay
for airline tickets for Gypsies who wanted to leave.

"We have two groups of people -- Gypsies and whites -- that live together,
but can't and don't want to," Liana Janackova said.  "So why can't one
group take the first step towards finding a solution?

"I don't think it's racist. We just want to help the Gypsies."

In exchange for financial help with the tickets, the Gypsies must give the
Marianske Hory town council their apartments and relinquish their
permanent- residency status in the country if they want to become
refugees.

One of the key people questioned on the TV program was George Kubes, an
immigration lawyer in Toronto who speaks Czech and Slovak. Mr. Kubes said
the documentary crew from the show approached him two weeks ago and asked
him questions about how Gypsies can seek refugee status in Canada.

The crew also interviewed one of Mr. Kubes's clients and took her for
dinner in the CN Tower for one of the segments to show that she was doing
well in Canada, he said.

But Mr. Kubes said there's "no better advertisement than word of mouth"
and that he has seen a marked increase in the number of Gypsies seeking
refugee status in Canada since January. He said he represents about 40
Gypsy families seeking refugee status and that 10 of his clients have been
granted refugee status.

"I don't really get into recruiting people to come to Canada," he said. "I
represent them once they get here."

But he conceded that his appearance on the program has in effect
encouraged a great many people to come to Canada. "I would say the program
definitely encouraged people to come as a whole. But I think what I gave
was an accurate view . . . an idea of what each person's legal rights
would be."

In the week since the program aired, many Gypsies from the Czech Republic
have tried to contact Mr. Kubes. The Czech consulate in Toronto has even
mistakenly received dozens of faxes addressed to him, he said.

"There's such a flood of people, I don't know what's going to happen," he
said.

His refugee claimants usually seek legal aid, which pays him $600 to
$1,000 a case, he said.

Prime Minister Vaclav Klaus told Czech Radio yesterday that he did not
expect Canada to accept Czech Romanies, and he discouraged them from mass
emigration.

Vera Roller, editor of the Canadian Czech newspaper Novy Domov (new
homeland), said she first heard of increases in Gypsy immigration in
February. Ms. Roller said she was concerned about the welfare of the
Gypsies who may have been misled by the program.

"These people will sell everything, travel to Canada," she said, "and at
the airport an immigration oficer can tell them to go back."
___________________________

Joe Szalai

On Wed, 13 Aug 1997, E.S. Balogh wrote:

<snip>
>         I would be more surprised that in Australia only people with
> "legitimate interest" could read dissertations approved by universities.
> Anyone can read dissertations in western countries. Or at least, I have
> never heard of any such country where you cannot.

Anyone in Canada can read dissertations.  The only limits are about the
borrowing times.  In our library, theses, dissertations, etc., are for
library use only. They don't circulate, but anyone on or off campus is
welcome to read them.

Joe Szalai

Eva Balogh's piece about the secret dissertations brings back memories of
similar nature. It is probably hard to believe, but in pre-1989 Romania the
libraries had so called secret areas. To read stuff in those areas one
needed special permissions. What was in those areas, one might ask. Well,
for example the older than one year issues of the Communist Party
newspapers. I assume the newsspeak changed so fast, that they had to hide
the previous version from the people.

I am not surprised that younger people in Hungary are not upset by the whole
incident. Probably the issues of privacy are somewhat confusing to them.
Also, it is not PC to bring up present day (or yesterday's) politician's
dissertations. Especially, if they contradict the politician's present
views. Those who are on the right will not bring up with pleasure that
Torgyan was ever praising the big neighbor from the East (although these
same people will freely attack people like Vasarhelyi for similar sins).

Incidents like this occurred in this country too. I seem to recall that
something fishy came up about Martin Luther King's dissertation. The right
took advantage of it while the liberal portion of press did not deal with it
a lot (is this what happened?).

Gabor D. Farkas

Sandy's comments are very true, but I find it interesting that the spaces
and locations of this sex moves to places where regulations and mores may
not be as well established. The other story I have heard is that Germans
fly down to Budapest and fly back the same day, for one purpose only. I
don't know if this is true, but a Delta attendant told me that one. Get on
in Berlin, get off in Budapest (pun intended) and go back to the German
wife that afternoon. I guess Lufthansa is making a killing off of this.

Is pornography universal? I hope not, but then stories like the dog-bowl
and the masochistic mistress make me wonder.

Darren Purcell
Department of Geography
Florida State University

Eva Balogh on the brouhaha about Torgyan's dissertation (which, apparently,
was written before his conversion to "God, Country, Family"):

> ...The rest of the dissertation seemed to have been praising the Soviet
> Union for liberating Hungary and for its generosity toward the liberated
> countries.
>        I would be curious what you think of this incident. ESB

It does explain why Mr Lovas, Torgyan's personal attack journalist and
hatchetman par excellence, felt it necessary a few weeks ago to launch
a preemptive attack on Miklos Vasarhelyi, head of the Hungarian office
of the Soros Foundation.

The point of the attack piece written by Lovas was somewhat obscure at
the time, given that Vasarhelyi's role in the fifties is well-known, and
was extensively covered in the Nagy Imre trial where he was accused and
convicted of organizing a subversive anti-party center within the
editorial offices of Szabad Nep.

The Lovas piece dealt at length with articles Vasarhelyi wrote in the old
Szabad Nep around the same time Torgyan was busy with his dissertation.
So inasmuch as I can fathom the mental processes of Mr Lovas, the point
of the preventive mudslinging against Vasarhelyi was to blunt the force
of revelations to come about Torgyan.  Of course, the dissertation
affair is pretty innocent stuff compared to the accusations (so far
unsubstantiated) of collaboration between Torgyan and the Communist
secret police, or Torgyan's role (far better substantiated) in the
judicial murders of 1956-58.  I am sure Mr Lovas has excellent ideas
about handling whatever bad PR might arise from that...

-----
Gabor Fencsik

At 09:52 AM 8/13/97 +0200, Miklos wrote:

>> "A new little French restaurant in town is serving up mild sadomasochism
>> with the food, offering such fare as a birthday paddling, boot leaning or
>> the chance to eat from a dog bowl at the feet of a whip-wielding mistress."
>Talkin4( or rather writing ) about Budapest or - rather Big Apple?

It is New York, there are some thongs where Budapest just can't compete.

Gabor D. Farkas

Eva Balogh on the educational standards of the 50s in Hungary:

> I would have been surprised if it was terribly different in the law
> school. Perhaps worse, given the subject matter. But perhaps someone
> among us have first-hand experience on this subject. In any case,
> Torgyan's law degree is not worth much. However, he is a clever man
> in a sly way, and as far as I know he was a successful lawyer before
> the change of regime.

He was a highly successful divorce lawyer with a thriving practice in the
Buda Hills before he discovered the inner politician in himself.  Since
there has been a free and open market in the field of divorce lawyering
from the sixties on (although of course lawyers could only practice as
members of officially sanctioned legal cooperatives a.k.a. 'ugyvedi
munkakozosseg') the fact that he was successful means he had to be good
at whatever it is that divorce lawyers do -- mostly wringing ex-spouses
dry, I suppose.  So whether or not his diploma was worth the paper it was
written on, there is no reason to doubt he was a competent lawyer.

On the general issue of the quality of education in Hungary during the
50s, I am not sure things were quite as bleak everywhere.  The successes
of the 1956 emigration in the West, and the fact that many of the best
schools in engineering and the sciences managed to turn out a number
of world-class people without interruption, shows that there have always
been islands of quality teaching left, even in the years of the worst
political repression.  The humanities were always vulnerable to political
pressure, but formulating the 'party line' in Abelian group theory or
quantum electrodynamics is a much tougher nut.

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Gabor Fencsik