Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 838
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-11-05
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Restricted freedom or "Transylvania's seven deadly (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
2 Hungarian Folk Dance & Music on Nov. 9th, @ Ft Washingt (mind)  37 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Restricted freedom or "Transylvania's seven deadly (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind)  94 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Last day low fares to Hungary! (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Past and present (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
10 Hotels in Budpest (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
12 FUTURES TRADER (mind)  4 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: only one explanation (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Taxonomy (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Taxonomy (mind)  56 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: Taxonomy (mind)  74 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: Taxonomy (mind)  33 sor     (cikkei)
21 Social Concerns (mind)  42 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind)  78 sor     (cikkei)
23 Re: last names (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
24 need info on starting business in hungary (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
25 Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
26 Re: last names (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
27 Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind)  67 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Restricted freedom or "Transylvania's seven deadly (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Liviu Iordache wrote:
>

>
> And their religion was one of the reasons Romanians were not
> represented in the upper social layers. When Voyk, Hunyadi's father,
> converted to Roman Catholicism, he probably took a well -established
> path Romanians often followed for getting access to the political
> life.
>

Around the 15 century some Hungarians in southern Transylvania
converted to Orthodoxism just to avoid taxation. How could the Orthodox
be tax exempts if they are the majority of the population?  Is this
also the reason for not participating in revolts (not being taxed).

A. Albu
+ - Hungarian Folk Dance & Music on Nov. 9th, @ Ft Washingt (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

=20
SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 9th AT 8:00p.m.

The John Addison Concert Hall presents the dancers of TISZA ENSEMBLE with
the musicians of TANCHAZ! in an irrepressible performance of dance, music,
and song from the traditional culture of Hungary.=20

A Tanchaz (dance party) for audience, dancers, and musicians will
immediately follow the performance.

Admission $10 general, $8 seniors/students

Directions:

(Ft. Washington, MD, in Southern Prince George County across the Potomac &
southeast of Alexandria, Va.)
=09
=09Take Exit 3A (Indian Head Hwy. South) off the Washington Beltway=20
=09(I-495).
=09Go four miles on Indian Head Hwy. =20
=09At Ft. Washington Rd., turn right.
=09Turn right again at the next street  Livingston Rd., on the left is the
=09Harmony Hall Regional Center.

Note: As you drive down Indian Head Hwy., you will see several turn-offs
for Livingston Rd.  Do Not turn into livingston Rd. until after you have
made the right onto Ft. Washington Rd.

SEE YOU THERE!

Szilvia Bal=E1zs

-- L=E1sd Tisza Egy=FCttes web oldal=E1t - Please visit the homepage of the
   Tisza Ensemble:

WWW                : http://www.glue.umd.edu/~hungaria/Tisza
personal email     : 
+ - Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

"Eva S. Balogh" > wrote:

>        Funny, funny! I hope your "national pride" is more flattered by my
>kind words of Matthias's reign ;-)

I'll forward a copy of your article to Funar ;-)

> If Laszlo
>Hunyadi was 24 he was considered to be a grown-up. By the way, was he
>married? By the age of 24 he should have been.

I have no idea.

Regards,

Liviu Iordache
+ - Re: Restricted freedom or "Transylvania's seven deadly (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 wrote:

>Around the 15 century some Hungarians in southern Transylvania
>converted to Orthodoxism just to avoid taxation.

Is this information correct? If yes, gimme a reference, please.

> How could the Orthodox
>be tax exempts if they are the majority of the population?  Is this
>also the reason for not participating in revolts (not being taxed).

Which revolt are you talking about?

Regards,

Liviu Iordache
+ - Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 (George Szaszvari) wrote:

>Er, right, I've read a bit about Hungarian origins, but although having
>also read things about Romanian origins in bygone years I never seemed
>to be able to retain (trust?) the "information", due, no doubt, to the
>influence of my forebears, as well as the *tone* of the Ceaucescu era
>literature.

Has it ever crossed your mind that, in the past years, Hungarian
historical literature was extremely biased from a nationalistic
viewpoint, exactly as it was its Romanian counterpart?

>Ahem, if Romanians *always* called themselves *rumini*, then did *rumini*
>always call themselves *Romanian*? ;-)

I thought nothing can top  the question on whether the Saxons ever
called themselves Romanians or not.  Well, I was wrong ;-) Since
"Romanian" is the present/newer  English translation for "rom^n", your
stressing of the spelling differences between "Rumini" and "Romanians"
is meaningless; you are contrasting apples and oranges. On the same
token, since ,nonymus talks about Dentumogers, why the Hungarians call
themselves Magyars?  ;-)

Nevertheless, one should acknowledge that Romanian language was
subjected to  a conscious process of re-Latinization, that started in
the 17th century, with the writings of deacon Coresi. With him, the
spelling of "rumi^n" gradually shifted toward "roma^n." However, that
did not changed a bit its meaning.

>But seriously, this is the interesting bit, these rumini. That they came out
> dominant when so many other influences were present at various times:
>starting with the pre -Roman Indo-Europeans and movements of Illyrians,
Thracians, Scythians,
>Celts, Macedonian-Greeks, Romans. etc, then mixed in with Avars, Bulgars,
>Ostrogoths, Goths, Visigoths, Huns, etc, followed by the Bulgars

Actually we can talk about a "Rumin" people (to use your pet spelling
variant) only after their language incorporated the Slavic linguistic
elements. This is when the sound "a~" from "Rum*a~*n beecame a^ or i^.

> so I
>suspect that the Byzantine empire from Constantinople allowed the Latin
>tongue to develop as an *indigenous* tongue of the region long after the
>Roman Empire split up (what do you know or think about this?).

I think, you might wanna clarify a bit "the Byzantine empire allowing
Latin to develop long after the Roman Empire split up" stuff.

>It is interesting that long periods of Russian, Lithuanian, Turkish
>Ottoman and Hungarian control of territories now known as Romania did
>not snuff out the usage and development of that Latin offshoot.

It most certainly did. Plenty of post-10th century East Slavic and
Magyar loan-words are present in Romanian.

>Ceaucescu era scholars liked to claim Dacian roots for modern Romania
>(because of the obvious Roman connection) to justify the political
>claim for Transylvania.

While Hungarian scholars,  denying a Romanian presence in Transylvania
prior to Arpad's  arrival, like to trash the credibility of the first
Hungarian chronicler, Anonymus.

> Hungarians have had a territorially
>recognised nation-state for a millenium. I often get the idea that
>Romanians try to overcompensate for this difference when discussing
>their own origins.

You might be right here. It is also true that an idiotic attachment to
this idea of nation-state led ultimately to the Trianon partition of
the great millennial Hungarian state. I can only hope Romanians will
finally learn a lesson here.

>When you say Romanians, you mean Rumini (meaning Moldavian-Vlachs)
>of course.

Yes, that's exactly what I meant.

>Perhaps the the problem is English usage which speaks of
>Vlachs and Moldavians, but not of Rumini.

What does Romanian or, if you prefer, Rumanian mean in English?

>>I'm extremely curious to know where did you find this information.
>
>Er, it's not info, but a question asking for info.

You have mentioned several times Ceausescu-era literature. I thought
you read in that literature the claim  that the Saxons called
themselves Romanians.

Regards,

Liviu Iordache
+ - Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Teljesen igaza van a Vamossy Karcsinak, es azoknak akok mart reg ota 
kerek a Magyar kormanyt arra hogy engedjek meg a Magyaroknak akik 
kulfoldon eloknek hogy szavazanak kulfoldon. Amint a Karcsi modja tobb 
orszag megengedi, sot pozitivan segit erre a lehetosegre.
Modjuk hogy Amerikaban minden konzulatusnal es Washingtonban is lehetne
ezt elintezni es nagyon konnyen. Persze rengeteg Magyar nem fizikailag 
van Magyarorszagon es igy -- es csak is igy -- tudja ez a jelenlegi 
kormany fenntartani a hatalmat.  Szegyeljek magukat, de latom hogy mar 
nincs bor a pofajukon azert nem torodnek vele.
Nem Magyarorszagon korul forog a vilag!

A SHORT DESCRIPTION IN ENGLISH
	
Mr. Vasmossy among others suggested support for permitting Hungarians 
outside the Hungary the right to vote ithe Hungarian elections.
Elections by Romanians, Bosnians, et al, are quite common. Yet, 
Hungarians (claiming to be advanced democracy) does NOT permit its many 
citizens to vote in the elections there. 

Both from an economic and practical perspective voting for Hungarians who 
happen to be outside the country during election times MUST be ensured.
It is only by this deniual of basic democratic principles that the 
current government can maintain its powerbase. For shame, shame. One can 
certainly see through this communist red (now pinko) BS. They are just 
afraid that they would be possibly thrown out of office. In a real 
democracy one needs to demonstrate that their policies, etc. are actually 
working and then let the people decide their faith. The Horn government 
unfortunately cannot bear the possibility of losing power. So they will 
do anything to stay in power.  Let us see some REAL democracy in Hungary 
for its citizens no matter where they live or where they happen to be!
+ - Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Teljesen igaza van a Vamossy Karcsinak, es azoknak akok mart reg ota
kerek a Magyar kormanyt arra hogy engedjek meg a Magyaroknak akik
kulfoldon eloknek hogy szavazanak kulfoldon. Amint a Karcsi modja tobb
orszag megengedi, sot pozitivan segit erre a lehetosegre.
Modjuk hogy Amerikaban minden konzulatusnal es Washingtonban is lehetne
ezt elintezni es nagyon konnyen. Persze rengeteg Magyar nem fizikailag
van Magyarorszagon es igy -- es csak is igy -- tudja ez a jelenlegi
kormany fenntartani a hatalmat.  Szegyeljek magukat, de latom hogy mar
nincs bor a pofajukon azert nem torodnek vele.
Nem Magyarorszagon korul forog a vilag!

A SHORT DESCRIPTION IN ENGLISH

Mr. Vasmossy among others suggested support for permitting Hungarians
outside the Hungary the right to vote ithe Hungarian elections.
Elections by Romanians, Bosnians, et al, are quite common. Yet,
Hungarians (claiming to be advanced democracy) does NOT permit its many
citizens to vote in the elections there.

Both from an economic and practical perspective voting for Hungarians who
happen to be outside the country during election times MUST be ensured.
It is only by this deniual of basic democratic principles that the
current government can maintain its powerbase. For shame, shame. One can
certainly see through this communist red (now pinko) BS. They are just
afraid that they would be possibly thrown out of office. In a real
democracy one needs to demonstrate that their policies, etc. are actually
working and then let the people decide their faith. The Horn government
unfortunately cannot bear the possibility of losing power. So they will
do anything to stay in power.  Let us see some REAL democracy in Hungary
for its citizens no matter where they live or where they happen to be!
+ - Re: Last day low fares to Hungary! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 04:14 PM 11/1/96 +0000, you wrote:
>Or the fact, that the flight costs more from
>the UK in all seasons than that price quoted from N.Y.
>, and even more
>on the train. International train-travel is now
>a luxury in Europe.

>
>
Perhaps if European airlines and trains were privatized and they would be
forced to compete for passengers, their fares would be lower, too.

BTW, there was a recent article in The Economist about the crisis European
railroads are about to face.  Government subsidies are becoming larger and
larger, forcing the same governments to look again...


Charlie Vamossy
+ - Re: Past and present (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:05 AM 11/4/86 +0000, Eva Durant wrote:
>Eva Balogh sounds somewhat victorious to find the present governing
>parties corrupt. She is right to be - this also a proof, that Hungary
>is ready for Europe. The only difference is, that Hungary has an even
>fuzzier relationship between power and money, than the "mature
>democracies" ...


        Oh, Eva. How is it possible that after more than two years of
"acquaintance" you still don't know me and my political view well enough to
write the above note. Meaning, that you think that I feel victorious because
the governing parties are corrupt. No, I feel sick about the whole thing. I
especially feel sick over the fact that the SZDSZ's hand was also caught in
the till. And I feel especially sick over the fact that Ivan Peto, the head
of the party, feels compelled to stay with the MSZP in spite of several
urgings from important people from the ranks of his own party.

        Now, when it comes to your other point--a very typical one given
your political views--I disagree. The corruption in Eastern Europe is much,
much greater and much much more pervasive than in Western Europe. And, I am
afraid, the real culprit in this, at least in Hungary, the existing
socialist regime you so often defend.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Hotels in Budpest (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Does anyone have any suggestions for Hotels  in Budapest.
suitable for a family with  children  3 and 5 years old?  Any info,
pro or con, would be much appreciated.  We will  be in
Budapest in November/Descember. Please
reply via this newsgroup or to 

Brynjar Skaar
+ - Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Mon, 4 Nov 1996, Lajos MONOKI wrote:
>
> There is a big difference: only Romanians with Romanian citizenship can vote
> in abroad. And not all over the world. I wonder how many countries give a
> possibility to vote, eg. was there a place in Washington where Romanians
> could vote?
>
> In my opinion it isn't fair to decide about hungarian politics from abroad.
> If you live in the USA, Canada or Australia you can easily vote for a person
> or party which has a biggest impression on you. And if you choose badly you
> don't have to live with your choice, you are away and safe, only those
> little poor hungarians at home have to suffer.
>
> So on this question my personal view is this: a government - government of
> any country - should be elected by the people living in that country. If the
> majority of the nation makes a mistake then they have to live with their
 choice.
>--------------
Bravo Lajos!

   The way I see it, only Hungarian citizens living in Hungary or being
on temporary assignement abroad should be eligible to vote in elections
in Hungary. There shouldn't even be a debate about this. Period!!!

   Amos J. Danube
   Enjoying the sunshine in Florida, for good -
+ - FUTURES TRADER (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

FUTURES TRADER with own REAL-TIME-QUOTE-SYSTEM offers INTRODUCING
BROKERS and interested privat clients rewarding opportunities.

 Mail to: 
+ - Re: only one explanation (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:20 PM 11/3/96 -0500, Ferenc Novak wrote:

 on Nov  2 10:06:44 EST 1996 in HUNGARY #836:
>
><snip>
>
>>Ferenc,
>>
>>I see a lot of unfairness and inequality in our society.  I've yet to see
>>you oppose any of it.  Can I assume that your silence is tacit approval of
>>the way things are?
>>
>>Joe Szalai
>
>Joe,
>
>As a librarian, you are probably a pretty bright fellow.  How can you write
>something as silly as this?  I simply don't know what to make of such
>nonsense.
>
>Ferenc

Why is it silly, Ferenc?  I said that I haven't seen you oppose any
injustice in our society on this newsgroup.  You could prove me wrong by
simply citing a few of your posts where you do.  Good luck!

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Taxonomy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:20 PM 11/3/96 -0500, Ferenc Novak wrote:

<snip>
>I think you are the victim of a misunderstanding.  Of course, people call
>the events of 1956 "revolution".  But that does not mean they don't also
>consider the term "freedom fight" an apt phrase for part of those events.
>Of course, the 1956 "szabadsagharc" was different from that of 1848-49 in
>scope and duration, nevertheless the idea was the same: to rid the country
>of a foreign oppressor.
>
>Ferenc

This sounds very patronizing, Ferenc.  The 1956 Hungarian Revolution changed
my life more than any other event in recent years.  For 40 years it was
called a "revolution" and I don't endear folks who wish to call it something
else.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Taxonomy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe Sz. At 05:43 PM 04/11/96 -0500, you wrote:
(I am way below)...
>At 09:20 PM 11/3/96 -0500, Ferenc Novak wrote:
><snip>
>>I think you are the victim of a misunderstanding.  Of course, people call
>>the events of 1956 "revolution".  But that does not mean they don't also
>>consider the term "freedom fight" an apt phrase for part of those events.
>>Of course, the 1956 "szabadsagharc" was different from that of 1848-49 in
>>scope and duration, nevertheless the idea was the same: to rid the country
>>of a foreign oppressor.
>>
>>Ferenc
>
>This sounds very patronizing, Ferenc.  The 1956 Hungarian Revolution changed
>my life more than any other event in recent years.  For 40 years it was
>called a "revolution" and I don't endear folks who wish to call it something
>else.
>
>Joe Szalai

Hi Joe!

By deduction of some recently wittnessed events, you are far from being
alone in thinking this way.  One of the most touching, was a television
interview with a group of students (12-16) and four History teachers.  The
interview was filmed while this group was touring several '56 monuments;
aired on Oct 23rd. The dialogue which took place between the children and
their teachers was most intriguing.

At one point, the smallest child in the group asked: "Why do some call it
"forradalom" and others "szabadsagharc?  What is the difference"?"  One of
the older teachers then replied:  "forradalom", is history.  "szabadsagharc"
is a politcal game used to gain power".

During a trip to Hungary this summer, I made a concerted effort at asking
just about everyone I ran accross to define the events of '56 in a single
word.  Not one person asked, came up with "szabadsagharc" - unanimously I
was told  "forradalom".  (There was *one* person, who used another
description, but I can't think of it for now... it was "anti ... something).
This time, "szabadsagharc" was significantly more frequented by the media at
large.  The general concensus of the people (at least within my circle that
is) was that of strong resentment when seeing the events described as
"szabadsagharc".

As for me; not being a historian, a professor or a participant of '56,  I am
more confused on this issue than before; but tend to really like the older
teachers calm response.  At the least, it reaked of logic, rather than emotion.

Btw - I must disagree with an earlier posting of yours suggesting that
people don't seem to care about this; October 23rd in Hungary was quite a
day to behold!   I was most touched by the interest of the youngest
generation; - whom most specifically are openly *demanding* information on
the events of 56 along with a concensus of it's definition.

Best regards,
Aniko
+ - Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Amos Danube At 05:12 PM 04/11/96 -0500, you wrote:
>On Mon, 4 Nov 1996, Lajos MONOKI wrote:
>>
>> There is a big difference: only Romanians with Romanian citizenship can vote
>> in abroad. And not all over the world. I wonder how many countries give a
>> possibility to vote, eg. was there a place in Washington where Romanians
>> could vote?
>>
>> In my opinion it isn't fair to decide about hungarian politics from abroad.
>> If you live in the USA, Canada or Australia you can easily vote for a person
>> or party which has a biggest impression on you. And if you choose badly you
>> don't have to live with your choice, you are away and safe, only those
>> little poor hungarians at home have to suffer.
>>
>> So on this question my personal view is this: a government - government of
>> any country - should be elected by the people living in that country. If the
>> majority of the nation makes a mistake then they have to live with their
> choice.
>>--------------
>Bravo Lajos!
>
>   The way I see it, only Hungarian citizens living in Hungary or being
>on temporary assignement abroad should be eligible to vote in elections
>in Hungary. There shouldn't even be a debate about this. Period!!!

Second this!

>   Amos J. Danube
>   Enjoying the sunshine in Florida, for good -
and ... jelous as hell for this!!!  It's snowing here today... brrr!  Send
us some of the yellow stuff would ya?

Best regards,
Aniko

>
+ - Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:30 PM 11/4/96 +0100, Lajos Monoki  wrote:

>
>There is a big difference: only Romanians with Romanian citizenship can vote
>in abroad. And not all over the world. I wonder how many countries give a
>possibility to vote, eg. was there a place in Washington where Romanians
>could vote?

Yes, Romanian citizens could vote in Washington DC, and also on the West
Coast (I think there is a Romanian consulate in san Francisco).


Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:37 AM 11/4/96, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
 Let us see some REAL democracy in Hungary
>for its citizens no matter where they live or where they happen to be!

Do you pay taxes in Hungary? Do you carry a Hungarian passport? You have to
be a citizen to vote.
Can non-citizens vote in the USA? Americans who settle permanently outside
the USA  cannot participate in the American democratic process either.
+ - Re: Taxonomy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 7:30 PM 11/4/96, Aniko Dunford wrote:
>Joe Sz. At 05:43 PM 04/11/96 -0500, you wrote:
>(I am way below)...
>>At 09:20 PM 11/3/96 -0500, Ferenc Novak wrote:
>><snip>
>>>I think you are the victim of a misunderstanding.  Of course, people call
>>>the events of 1956 "revolution".  But that does not mean they don't also
>>>consider the term "freedom fight" an apt phrase for part of those events.
>>>Of course, the 1956 "szabadsagharc" was different from that of 1848-49 in
>>>scope and duration, nevertheless the idea was the same: to rid the country
>>>of a foreign oppressor.
>>>
>>>Ferenc
>>
>>This sounds very patronizing, Ferenc.  The 1956 Hungarian Revolution changed
>>my life more than any other event in recent years.  For 40 years it was
>>called a "revolution" and I don't endear folks who wish to call it something
>>else.
>>
>>Joe Szalai
>
>Hi Joe!
>
>By deduction of some recently wittnessed events, you are far from being
>alone in thinking this way.  One of the most touching, was a television
>interview with a group of students (12-16) and four History teachers.  The
>interview was filmed while this group was touring several '56 monuments;
>aired on Oct 23rd. The dialogue which took place between the children and
>their teachers was most intriguing.
>
>At one point, the smallest child in the group asked: "Why do some call it
>"forradalom" and others "szabadsagharc?  What is the difference"?"  One of
>the older teachers then replied:  "forradalom", is history.  "szabadsagharc"
>is a politcal game used to gain power".
>
>During a trip to Hungary this summer, I made a concerted effort at asking
>just about everyone I ran accross to define the events of '56 in a single
>word.  Not one person asked, came up with "szabadsagharc" - unanimously I
>was told  "forradalom".  (There was *one* person, who used another
>description, but I can't think of it for now... it was "anti ... something).
>This time, "szabadsagharc" was significantly more frequented by the media at
>large.  The general concensus of the people (at least within my circle that
>is) was that of strong resentment when seeing the events described as
>"szabadsagharc".
>
>As for me; not being a historian, a professor or a participant of '56,  I am
>more confused on this issue than before; but tend to really like the older
>teachers calm response.  At the least, it reaked of logic, rather than emotion
.
>
>Btw - I must disagree with an earlier posting of yours suggesting that
>people don't seem to care about this; October 23rd in Hungary was quite a
>day to behold!   I was most touched by the interest of the youngest
>generation; - whom most specifically are openly *demanding* information on
>the events of 56 along with a concensus of it's definition.
>
>Best regards,
>Aniko

Dear Aniko!

The Hungarian word SZABADSAGHARC means war of independence although some
people may think that it means fight for independence. In the mind of
Hungarians who studied history the word SZABADSAGHARC  is associated with
1848 which was not a fight for freedom (not for the peasants, the
Romanians, the Serbs, the Slovaks,  all subjects of the king of Hungary)
but a war of independence (plus a civil war). Was 1956 a war of
independence? Only in a limited way. The people revolted against the
communist totalitarian state; they wanted to be free. We did not wage war
on the Russians but asked them to leave and let us live with them side by
side in peace. National communists, socialists, liberals and conservatives
all agreed on that.

Peter I. Hidas
+ - Re: Taxonomy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:41 PM 04/11/96 -0400, you wrote:
>At 7:30 PM 11/4/96, Aniko Dunford wrote:
<snip mia stuffo>

>Dear Aniko!
>
>The Hungarian word SZABADSAGHARC means war of independence although some
>people may think that it means fight for independence. In the mind of
>Hungarians who studied history the word SZABADSAGHARC  is associated with
>1848 which was not a fight for freedom (not for the peasants, the
>Romanians, the Serbs, the Slovaks,  all subjects of the king of Hungary)
>but a war of independence (plus a civil war).

> Was 1956 a war of
>independence? Only in a limited way. The people revolted against the
>communist totalitarian state; they wanted to be free. We did not wage war
>on the Russians but asked them to leave and let us live with them side by
>side in peace. National communists, socialists, liberals and conservatives
>all agreed on that.
>
>Peter I. Hidas
>
Hi Peter.  Thanks for your response ... call me stupid, but I'm still
confused.  You're not being specific enough for what at times might well be
referred to as "my pea brain".  Revolt ... wanting to be free?  National
communists, socialists, liberals and conservatives all agreed on that ....
ok .... "we asked<...>" but in the end result, the bottom line becomes ....
was it "forradalom, or  "szabadsagharc"? You never did committ to either
definintion, and also I'm not entirely sure of what you were trying to say,
really.

Best regards,
Aniko
+ - Social Concerns (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Joe!

You were challenging Ferenc Novak to show his postings expressing social
concerns. This made me think, how would I answer such a question. I
consider myself a concerned individual, I see and hear a lot things, which
I condemn and would like express my disapproval, but very seldom feel that
expressing it in this or any other public forum is justified, and possible
do more harm than good.

Let's take a few examples. In the Globe and Mail the paper's foreign
correspondent Adam Lebor wrote an article from Budapest: "Xenophobes give
Hungary's reputation a black eye" [Oct. 14, 1996]. He supported his
argument with an incident, when he was in bar with his friend, and a
Hungarian bully beat up his friend, supposedly because they were speaking in
English. I think this is terrible, if it is true the way he described it.
Still I do not think he was justified writing an article about Hungary's
reputation on the basis of this incident.

Here is an other example. In the Hungarian papers we often read dramatic
stories about the poverty in Hungary. This is viewed by some people as
shameless extremist demagoguery. So may be we should not talk about these
extreme cases, without putting these incidents in proper perspective.

The problem is, that very few people can put these incidents in proper
perspective. There is no data, nobody is monitoring these social injustices
carefully. The statistical yearbooks are very vague on these.

I can recall only one such study. A Jewish organization keeps track of
every anti-Semitic incidents in Canada. I heard them quoting yearly data,
classified into different type manifestation of anti-Semitism.
Unfortunately I don't have a reference to it, but this is what I would like
to see collected and regularly published in many areas of social
activities.

You as a Librarian may know if such publication exist. Racism,
homophobia, xenophobia, violence of various types, poverty, unemployment,
economic crimes, distribution of wealth, all should be carefully measured,
so we may spot dangerous trends before some crisis develops. I know it is
difficult to do, but we should try it. If we can figure out what motivated
Hunyadi Laszlo in the 15th century, this should be a cinch.

Barna Bozoki
+ - Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
 says...
>
>At 10:11 PM 11/3/96 GMT, Agnes wrote:
>
>>I am sorry, Eva, but I disagree.  Erkel was not the only Hungarian
>>composer who is unknown in the West.  The other day I saw a video of
>>Sybill by Jacobi.  I was amazed how good it was.  I could only compare
it
>>to a good performance of Die Fledermaus.  The music is lovely - we, of
>>course knew quite a few arias from it.  He also wrote Leanyvasar.  I
have
>>never-never heard any Jacobi anywhere but Hungarian broadcasts.  There
is
>>also Goldmark's The Queen of Sheba.  On the other hand, I have never
>>heard of Gilbert and Sullivan until I arrived in Canada.  (I still
think
>>I didn't miss anything - they are not to compare with their
>>contemporaries).  Oh, by the way, I like Erkel.
>
>        I don't know about Jacobi but Goldmark can be heard here and
there
>on National Public Radio and, of course, Peter Goldmark, I think a
grandson,
>was the man who came up with LP (Long Playing) records, which was in
those
>days I fantastic improvement over the 33 or 45 records. What I know
about
>Jacobi is not much, but I think he actually died in New York sometime in
the
>early 1920s. As far as I know he was quite well known during his
lifetime as
>a composer of operettas. I am sure that he wasn't untalented but
operettas
>are not in vogue nowadays. Of course, the greatest operetta composer
ever as
>far as I am concerned was Ferenc Lehar.
>
>        I agree that Gilbert and Sullivan are not known in Hungary (and
my
>feeling in Europe general) and I had never heard of their operettas
before I
>arrived in Canada either. On the other hand, I think they are fun.
>
>        As far as Erkel is concerned. I tried him out (I had the
complete
>recording of Ban Bank at one point) on several friends who were
musically
>astute. He didn't cut it. I remember years ago trying to defend Erkel
and
>compared him to Smetana and Dvorak and I was told that his music was
simply
>not as good as the music of either. And the more I think about him, the
more
>I think that my friends were right. The only reason we think highly of
him
>is because he is the composer of our national anthem and our national
>operas. His tunes are so familiar. But I don't think that any of us
would
>argue that in the gallery of Hungarian composer, Erkel can really be
>compared to Liszt or Bartok. (I didn't mention Kodaly, because--please,
God
>help me!--I don't think he was much of a composer either. In spite of
the
>fact that I have an autograph of his framed in my study. Every time I
listen
>to Kodaly, I think of Copeland, and I hate Copeland.) Admitting all my
sins,
>I remain, faithfully yours,
>
>        Eva Balogh
>
>De gustibus non est disputandum... I am not a musician.  I only like
music.  Re: operettas.  Both Lehar and Kalman are very well known here,
but I have never heard any Jacobi.  I agree with you about Kodaly.  Also,
I know that Bartok was great, but I still cannot stand his dissonance.

Agnes
+ - Re: last names (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
 says...
>
>Does anybody know if the last name Fabian is Hungarian?  I've been
>interested in finding more out about my family and finally made a
decision
>to start looking.  All I know is that my grandfather's parents were from
>Hungary.  Thanks!
>
>Tari

>

Fabian is quite a common Hungarian surname - I don't know its origin,
though.

Agnes
>Send me some poetry to put on my homepage
>http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/4194
>
>Visit my mom's Australian Shepherd Homepage
>http://www.angelfire.com/md/Aussies/index.html
>
>"When your heart speaks take good notes."
>"Some horses are so polite that when they come to a fence, they
> stop and let you go over first."
+ - need info on starting business in hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hi there!

Thanks for reading this message.
I'm looking for links where I can get some info on starting a business
in Budapest.
 Thanks in advance,  Egidius
+ - Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hi Peter (Hidas) ... just to make sure!!!

At 10:25 PM 04/11/96 -0400, you wrote:
>At 11:37 AM 11/4/96, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
> Let us see some REAL democracy in Hungary
>>for its citizens no matter where they live or where they happen to be!
>
>Do you pay taxes in Hungary? Do you carry a Hungarian passport? You have to
>be a citizen to vote.
Yes, yes and am.

>Can non-citizens vote in the USA?
Ha?
>Americans who settle permanently outside
>the USA  cannot participate in the American democratic process either.
Think such.

Still I agree with Amos ... big time ( as would my kiddos say)  and now, as
for Peter Soltesz ... "Real democracy in Hungary" - am sure was a typo... he
*must* have meant to write "Real Dictatorship" as deducing from his past
many many posts... yes?

Best regards,
Aniko

 >
>
+ - Re: last names (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Does anybody know if the last name Fabian is Hungarian?  I've been
>interested in finding more out about my family and finally made a decision
>to start looking.  All I know is that my grandfather's parents were from
>Hungary.  Thanks!

Yes, it can be hungarian: Fa'bia'n


+ - Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Teljesen igaza van a Vamossy Karcsinak, es azoknak akok mart reg ota
>kerek a Magyar kormanyt arra hogy engedjek meg a Magyaroknak akik
>kulfoldon eloknek hogy szavazanak kulfoldon. Amint a Karcsi modja tobb
>orszag megengedi, sot pozitivan segit erre a lehetosegre.
>Modjuk hogy Amerikaban minden konzulatusnal es Washingtonban is lehetne
>ezt elintezni es nagyon konnyen. Persze rengeteg Magyar nem fizikailag
>van Magyarorszagon es igy -- es csak is igy -- tudja ez a jelenlegi
>kormany fenntartani a hatalmat.  Szegyeljek magukat, de latom hogy mar
>nincs bor a pofajukon azert nem torodnek vele.
>Nem Magyarorszagon korul forog a vilag!
>

Egy nagy kulonbseg azert van: azok a romanok szavazhatnak kulfoldon, akik
roman allampolgarok. Es nem a vilag minden orszagaban. Nem tudom,
Magyarorszagon kivul meg melyik orszagban volt tobb olyan hely ahol a roman
allampolgarok leadhadtak szavazataikat. Pl. Washingtonban szavazhattak az
ott tartozkodo romanok?

Viszont szerintem az sem igazsagos, hogy olyanok dontsenek pl. a magyar
belpolitikarol, akik evtizedek ota nem jartak Magyarorszagon (es a kozeli
jovoben sem fognak). Elhiszem, hogy az USA-ban, Kanadaban vagy Ausztraliaban
elve nzugodt lelekkel valaszthatja meg mindenki azt a partot vagy szemelyt
aki a legnagyobb hatassal van ra. Aztan a teved, akkor o biztonsagban van,
csak a sok kis buta otthon maradt magyar szenvedi el a kovetkezmenyeket. Ez
tipikus peldaja annak, amit ugy mondanak: mas farkaval verni a csalant ...

Szoval ezzel kapcsolatban nekem az a szemelyes velemenyem, hogy egy kormanyt
- legyen az barmely orszag kormanya - azok valasszak meg, akik abban az
orszagban elnek. Ha a tobbseg rosszul dont, akkor viselje is el a
kovetkezmenyeit. De senki ne kiabaljon be a "palya szelerol". Magyarorszag
eseten mar csak azert is igazsagtalan volna ez, mert a 15-20 millio
magyarbol *csak* 9-10 millio el Magyarorszagon. Ebben az esetben meg az is
elofordulhatna, hogy olyan kormany kerulne hatalomra Magyarorszagon, akikre
egyetlen itthon elo allampolgar sem szavazott! Ehhez tegyuk hozza, hogy volt
olyan terv is, hogy mindenki szavazhat, aki "magyarnak vallja magat" (tehat
elvileg egy San  Francisco-i kinai is, felteve hogy tud annyit mondani hogy
"magyar vagyok" :-).


In english (short)

There is a big difference: only Romanians with Romanian citizenship can vote
in abroad. And not all over the world. I wonder how many countries give a
possibility to vote, eg. was there a place in Washington where Romanians
could vote?

In my opinion it isn't fair to decide about hungarian politics from abroad.
If you live in the USA, Canada or Australia you can easily vote for a person
or party which has a biggest impression on you. And if you choose badly you
don't have to live with your choice, you are away and safe, only those
little poor hungarians at home have to suffer.

So on this question my personal view is this: a government - government of
any country - should be elected by the people living in that country. If the
majority of the nation makes a mistake then they have to live with their choice
.


******************************
*       Lajos Monoki         *
*  NCR Hungary - CSS Szeged  *
* e-mail: *
*  Tel/Fax: +36-62-434101    *
*    Mobil: +36-30-584523    *
******************************

We are born naked, wet and hungry.  Then things get worse.

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