Andras Kornai writes:

>Seems I succeded in throwing down the gauntlet...

Sorry, Popper is a hobbyhorse of mine, mainly because his criticism of my
intellectual hero, Karl Mannheim,  misrepresents Mannheim's position, and
because Popper's disciple, Derek Freeman, did a job on Margaret Mead after
she passed on.

>Laborfalvi Benke
>Tibor takes "historicism" in a very narrow sense: I don't particularly
>mean the exact positions endorsed by Ranke, Dilthey, or Troelch (and
>neither did Popper). To me (and as far as I can see, to Popper)
>historicism is _any_ method based on the tenet that to understand
>something you must understand its history first and foremost.

Precisely.   But this generalization or abstraction, in my view, is exactly
the sort of essentialism he is warning us against.  By using  a method
almost harking back to Parmenides, he shows the non-predictability of
history, he then accuses Historicism, as such, of claiming the contrary,
and by proving them wrong (actually only some of them and only within his
broadened framework) he buries consideration of the insights of  actual
historicism.    For me, the main contribution of Historicism is the
relativisation of the concept of knowledge.   Historicists uncovered  a
philosophical black hole  the existence of which is also pointed to by the
work in Anthropology that Boas and his disciples did.   This means not only
making our own conclusions more tentative, but cultivating a respectful
understanding of the knowledge of our predecessors and our 'primitive'
contemporaries.
 .
>In this
>broad sense, Hegel and Marx were historicists (indeed, the title
>harkens back to "The poverty of philosophy"), and so were the
>neogrammarians. Since it is precisely the methodological priority of
>diachronic studies that I'm calling into question, I think Popper's
>work in this direction is highly relevant. But it is by no means the
>only such work -- Ferdinand de Saussure precedes Popper by a good 40
>years.
>

De Saussure, by inventing structural linguistics, certainly laid the
foundations which have made linguistics the most 'scientific' of the social
sciences, surpassing even psychology and economics, (but then, that is not
saying  very much).   In Anthropology, his work is fundamental to the work
of Levi-Strauss and his disciples,  but as Piaget ( see his short
monograph:  _Structuralism_) and many others have shown synchronic analysis
has a, what one might term, Godellian limit.  The content of language is
*meaning* and semantics or, at least semiotics, would be hard to do without
diachronic analysis.   But arguments about priority are mug's games (and I
suspect such arguments are rooted in testosteirone poisioning).  As for
Hegel and Marx, they are still worth paying attention to, because, they
made a beginning toward a *dynamic* view of reality.

>> Popper, maintains, following Hume, that induction can never lead to
>> 'proof', because no matter how often an event might recurr, the
>> probability that it will recurr again is not affected.

>Yes indeed -- the only thing affected is our estimate of this
>probability. But I'm less interested in arguing the merits of Popper's
>views (which I find quite reasonable) as in the general question of
>history and historicism in the broader sense. I'm also not interested
>in naming contests whether only predictive science merits the name
>`science'. In brief, I see three kinds of activities that are in some
>sense scientific, or at least can be so: first is the collection of
>facts or philology (again generalized from its narrow sense in
>linguistics), second the effort to organize these facts or taxonomy,
>and third the building of models and testing them against experiments.
>History does lots of the first, some of the second, and practically
>none of the third.  As for the loaded term `explanation' it seems
>obvious to me that neither philological nor taxonomic activities can
>furnish any -- only models (some would say only causal models, but I'm
>not so picky) can be said to explain things.
>

I have certain doubts about whether the terms 'science' and 'scientific'
are meritorious at all.   Rather I am concerned about what qualifies as
'knowledge'.  This is a historical problem, because in every historical
epoch, the answer varies.  Much historical misunderstanding stems from the
neglect of this phenomenon.  It is also a political problem in our day,
because we seem to be confronted with rule by technocrats, on the one hand,
or rule by organized criminals and conmen, on the other - '1984' *and*
'Brave New World', as unimaginable as may be - combined!

I agree that the discipline of history is busy mainly with philology in
your broad sense, and that its practice of 'taxonomy' is spotty at best,
and that due to lack of modeling, real explanations have not yet been
produced.    But the tools for both taxonomy and modeling are just
beginning to come to hand.   Personaly, I look forward to the day, when we
are able to trace the notion of 'self sacrifice' from the well dressed
corpses to be found in Sumerian royal tombs, through the diffusion and
development of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, to the ethnic cleansing in
the Balkans; and illustrate all of it visually on an animated map of the
Old World.  Each frame could show seven year's worth of change.  Click at
5,000 B.P.  and watch the diffusion.  Construct models which would result
in 'alternate historical' patterns.  As for taxonomy, I suspect that it can
be shown that Marxism is a version of Christianity, actually a version of
German Pietism, with the element labelled 'God' replaced by 'Science'
(understood in its nineteenth century positive sense), 'the fall' replaced
by 'alienation', 'eden' replaced by 'primitive communism' and 'heaven'
replaced by 'communism'.   I predict, that it is possible by means of
Levi-Straussian transformations to generate the Marxist discourse from a
pietistic discourse.  One need not, however, belittle either Christianity
or Marxism, one just needs to see that they share the idea that there is
one 'truth'.


>> Are you saying that the turkic root words in Hungarian, or the latin root
>> words in English tell us nothing about the way those languages are,

>Yes. It's perfectly possible to imagine a version of English in which
>the word for `coach' has Germanic, rather than Hungarian origins. It
>is true that such objects were built in Ko1cs, but they could have
>equally well been built in Darmstadt and called `darm'. There is
>nothing in the language itself that makes `coach' necessary -- it is,
>as any linguist will tell you, a `historical accident' not a
>`structural feature'.
>

You are right that English would loose nothing if 'coach' was called
'darm', or even if the concept was completely lacking.  The import, which
qualifies this particular historical accident as a factoid worthy of
_Trivia_, is the unaccountable (to me) desire of Hungarians to persuade
themselves  that they are (Western?) European.   For me it is a little like
trying to climb back on the Titanic because one still has a ticket stub,
even though it's wet..


>> whatever that effect may be, it is not mechanical and straightforward.
>> Once we have understood that point, we need to discern empirically,
>> how interest (both in the political/economic sense and in the
>> cognitive sense), activity (Work, Play, Conflict , Competition, and
>> Cooperation) and externalities (the environment and the 'economy')
>> interact to produce the results we _experience_.  I think this is a
>> long range problem, and certainly not resolveable by us in this forum.

>I agree. I'm not even saying it's entirely hopeless (just look at the
>tremendous progress biology made since Darwin) but it's not there
>_now_.  I again challenge the professional historians and
>history-buffs on HUNGARY to come up with a single reason why we should
>look at things prior to 1975 to help us determine how Hungary should
>act vis a vis Romania and Slovakia.
>

Because the sins of the fathers are visited down even onto the fourth
generation.  The current social structure prevalent in the Carpathian
Basin, is a result of the history of the Carpathian Basin in the last
40,000 years.  The cultural identity, the reflex behavior of the political
actors in the territory, are incomprehensible without an understanding how
they were formed by history.   On FORUM, someone just sent in the latest
atrocity stories from Transylvania.  They are awful indeed. Without an
understanding of the past, it all looks sensless.  But with some
understanding of History, one can at least understand that neither side is
composed of insane or especially evil people, but that each side is
behaving the way it is, because two divergent narratives of the past have
been incorporated into their 'identities' in the course of historical
processes which included the crashing together of a number of Empires
(Byzantine, Holy Roman, Ottoman, Russian, Austrian, Soviet, NATO).    Are
we going to replace socialist internationalism with capitalist
internationalism?  Or are we going to develop some useful method of
understanding what it is everyone is trying to hold on to and think up some
plausible way of assuring everone that whatever it is, they  can save it?
What is *the* answer?


You say in another context, replying to Gabor Fencsik:

>Spreading your arms, palms outward, and uttering the magic formula
>"Ha1t mettodome1n?" works well in these situations. What this gesture
>lacks in deep explanatory power is more than adequately made up by its
>honesty.


With this I agree 100%. :-)


Best regards,

Tibor Benke

Ga1bor Fencsik rises to my challenge to "come up with a reason why we
should look at things prior to 1975 to help us determine how Hungary
should act vis a vis Romania and Slovakia".

> "Looking at things prior to 1975" means many
> things.  It means looking at events, the various interpretations of
> events, received ideas, and their source: the history books from which
> generations of schoolkids were taught.
By going from those who are in power now back to their formative
years, perhaps 40-50 years ago, you can stretch my rather arbitrary
time limit of 30 years a bit. But you must admit this method is too
weak to take you back 75 years, life expectancies being what they are.

> It means taking each collective
> obsession (on either side) and tracing it back to its origins.
You are begging the question -- why do we need to trace it back to its origins
to understand it? It's like saying that to understand absolute geometry you
have to resolve the priority issue between Bolyai and Lobatschevski.

> The point is to create trust where nothing but distrust exists now.
> To create trust, it is necessary to learn how to avoid each other's
> neuralgic points.  To avoid them, you must know where they are.
Yes.

> The neuralgic points all have
> to do with history, the way it is taught and the way it is thought about.
No. What has the long waiting period for cars and trucks at the borders
(a real neuralgic point) got to do with history? How about competition
for low-skilled jobs in Hungary by ethnic Hungarians from abroad, how
about the number of minority-language schools, visa requirements, etc.?
These have nothing to do with history other than in the trivial sense that
of course everything has a history.

> The world is full of ethnic conflict and commercial squabbles, but the
> conflicts in Eastern Europe have a special flavor to them: they all revolve
> around history.
Some do, some don't. The ones that do are much like religious ware -- they
are fought about ill-understood concepts and events that have no bearing
on the current situation. People are quite capable of fighting pointless
wars, but we don't need to encourage this.

> This is because the East European breed of nationalism
> -- along with most East European nations themselves -- is the invention of
> 19th century provincial schoolmasters.  [The process whereby this came
> about is described in a brilliant short chapter called The Course of True
> Nationalism Never Did Run Smooth, by E. Gellner, in his Nations and
> Nationalism.  Everything you ever need to know about the topic is right
> there, and it takes only 5 pages.]
Rings true -- will read this asap.

> Andras presented his modified Ford thesis out of frustration with the
> historical "debate" on the late lamented Seton-Watson the Elder.  We
> all remember how that went: "He is not an objective source." -- "Yes he
> is." -- "No, he's not." -- "Yes he is."  No matter how pointless, this
> style of argumentation is still useful as a diagnostic tool.  The
> arguments are leading nowhere, because the participants look at the same
> landscape and perceive completely different "facts".  How do you deal
> with this kind of pathology?  The solution implicitely proposed by
> Andras is to stop talking about history, period.
For the most part, yes. It's not that history as an academic discipline
should be abolished, but it's impact on public debate should be lessened until
historians are cited as justification no more often than, say, chemists.

> When one is faced with a person suffering from agoraphobia, it is
> useless to try to persuade them that their fears are irrational.  It is
> far better to try to understand what past experiences caused them to
> have those fears and suspicions, to accept why those fears were an
> appropriate response to the situation *then*, and to gently persuade
> them that it is safe to let go of those fears *now*.  The purpose is
> not to debunk or nullify someone's version of history; it is to enable
> them to function in spite of that history.  For the technique to work,
> one must be able to trace the phobias back to whatever trauma
> originally triggered them.  This approach is essentially historical.

Some people may remember how much I objected to E1va Balogh's use of a
personal metaphor. Nations are not persons, and they don't have a
psyche that needs to be analyzed. While it might sometimes be
legitimate to look for a person's long-repressed memories in search of
an explanation (and possible therapy) of their current behavior, this
is far from being an uncontroversial method -- just look at the
current debate on implanted memories. But even if we leave open the
possibility that for an actual person this _might_ make sense some of
the time, the case for nations is far from being made. In fact I'm
inclined to believe that the now largely discredited biologism of
early twentieth century social sciences (national character, national
will, etc.) is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

> To be more explicit, if someone (one of Funar's followers, let's say) has
> come to fear hordes of evil, devious Hungarians bent on her destruction,
> then it is useless to try to tell her these fears are irrational, or that
> they are based on events that never happened.  It might be better to
> acknowledge the fears, try to understand how these fears came to be, and
> gently persuade her that it is safe to let go of them now.  To do that,
> I must be aware that what I was told was a heroic struggle in 1848 to
> fight for freedom against the Austrian oppressor was described in *her*
> history classes rather differently: she was told it was a punitive
> expedition by Hungarian oppressors against defenseless Wallachs.
Yes but again you are talking about his current state of mind, and about
his schoolbooks, not about what actually happened in 1848.

> In a way, we were both taught crap, and it almost does not matter which
> version has the larger grain of truth.  From the standpoint of the narrow
> operational question posed by Andras, what matters is for both of us to
> understand where the fear and distrust come from.  This is very far from
> any strict scientific notion of "understanding", but it is a step forward.
Again the same petitio principii: you just can't let go of this idea of
understanding something by means of understanding where it came from. While
I agree we must understand the fear and the distrust, I don't think that
the historical method gains you anyting here (or elsewhere).

Andra1s Kornai

( a http://mineral.umd.edu/soc.culture.magyar/ URL cimrol )

Hollosi Jozsef irja: 

>Csak a pontossag kedveert: a fenti nem a HIX FRISS-hez (azaz
>http://hix.mit.edu/friss2/) hasonlit, hanem a Magyar Usenet Archivumhoz:
>
>http://hix.mit.edu/usenet/
>
>ahol nem csak a soc.culture.magyar, de a Mo-i csoportok is olvashatok.
>
>Jozsi.

A magyar Usenet csoportok Maryland-ben a http://mineral.umd.edu/usenet/ 
cim alatt talalhatok meg mar egy ideje. A soc.culture.magyar csoport 
fenti cime valojaban egy alias, ami a 
http://mineral.umd.edu/usenet/soc.culture.magyar/ cimre mutat .

Emellett meg a kovetkezo csoprotok olvashatok nalunk:

http://mineral.umd.edu/usenet/hun.general/         hun.general  
http://mineral.umd.edu/usenet/hun.lists.katalist   hun.lists.katalist 
http://mineral.umd.edu/usenet/hun.net/             hun.net 
http://mineral.umd.edu/usenet/hun.news/            hun.news

Gotthard

--
mailto:

( a http://mineral.umd.edu/soc.culture.magyar/ URL cimrol )

Hollosi Jozsef irja:

>Csak a pontossag kedveert: a fenti nem a HIX FRISS-hez (azaz
>http://hix.mit.edu/friss2/) hasonlit, hanem a Magyar Usenet Archivumhoz:
>
>http://hix.mit.edu/usenet/
>
>ahol nem csak a soc.culture.magyar, de a Mo-i csoportok is olvashatok.
>
>Jozsi.

A magyar Usenet csoportok Maryland-ben a http://mineral.umd.edu/usenet/
cim alatt talalhatok meg mar egy ideje. A soc.culture.magyar csoport
fenti cime valojaban egy alias, ami a
http://mineral.umd.edu/usenet/soc.culture.magyar/ cimre mutat .

Emellett meg a kovetkezo csoprotok olvashatok nalunk:

http://mineral.umd.edu/usenet/hun.general/         hun.general
http://mineral.umd.edu/usenet/hun.lists.katalist   hun.lists.katalist
http://mineral.umd.edu/usenet/hun.net/             hun.net
http://mineral.umd.edu/usenet/hun.news/            hun.news

Gotthard

--
mailto:

Dear Gotthard,

I believe you have been using the wrong address for your last couple of
postings related to .  Anyway, could you please not dump
this kind of stuff here?

Zsuzsa Csergo

( a http://mineral.umd.edu/soc.culture.magyar/ URL cimrol )

Hollosi Jozsef irja:

>Csak a pontossag kedveert: a fenti nem a HIX FRISS-hez (azaz
>http://hix.mit.edu/friss2/) hasonlit, hanem a Magyar Usenet Archivumhoz:
>
>http://hix.mit.edu/usenet/
>
>ahol nem csak a soc.culture.magyar, de a Mo-i csoportok is olvashatok.
>
>Jozsi.

A magyar Usenet csoportok Maryland-ben a http://mineral.umd.edu/usenet/
cim alatt talalhatok meg mar egy ideje. A soc.culture.magyar csoport
fenti cime valojaban egy alias, ami a
http://mineral.umd.edu/usenet/soc.culture.magyar/ cimre mutat .

Emellett meg a kovetkezo csoprotok olvashatok nalunk:

http://mineral.umd.edu/usenet/hun.general/         hun.general
http://mineral.umd.edu/usenet/hun.lists.katalist   hun.lists.katalist
http://mineral.umd.edu/usenet/hun.net/             hun.net
http://mineral.umd.edu/usenet/hun.news/            hun.news

Gotthard

--
mailto:


--
  soc.culture.magyar brought to you by the Hungarian-American List
                  http://mineral.umd.edu/hungary/
--

I would like to subscribe to the Hungary talk group
Thank You  Christine Jacques Gergely

Check previous message re finding Hudacsko family relatives in Adorgan,
Szatmar.  Need help before fathers leaves on trip.

--%#%NextPart#%#
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


Kedves Felhaszna'lo' !

Levele'nek cimzettje ) postafio'kja't beza'rta.
Levele't, mely a cimzetthez nem jutott el, melle'kelju:k.

Tisztelettel u:dvo:zli a postamester.


Hi,

You have sent a message to a closed postbox .
The remainder of this automatic reply consists of your original
message header and body.

The Postmaster.

#####################################################################
#                                                                   #
#  For more information please contact us via                       #
#                                                                   #
#  RFC822:                                  #
#  X.400 : C=hu; A=0; P=hungarnet; O=iif; S=Polakovics; G=Istvan    #
#  Phone : +36 1 129 48 41                                          #
#  Fax   : +36 1 129 78 66                                          #
#  Mail  : MTA SZTAKI                                               #
#          V. Hugo 18-22                                            #
#          1132 Budapest, Hungary                                   #
#####################################################################

--%#%NextPart#%#
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Received: from HUGBOX.SZTAKI.HU by helka.iif.hu with SMTP (PP);
          Sun, 27 Aug 1995 07:17:47 +0200
Received: from PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (VMMAIL) by HUGBOX (MX V4.1 VAX) with BSMTP;
          Sun, 27 Aug 1995 07:18:43 gmt+2
Received: from PUCC by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (Mailer R2.10 ptf008) with BSMTP
          id 0537; Sun, 27 Aug 95 01:17:22 EDT
Received: from hix.mit.edu by pucc.PRINCETON.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP;
          Sun, 27 Aug 95 01:17:21 EDT
Received: (from ) by hix.mit.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id AAA09620;
          Sun, 27 Aug 1995 00:26:29 -0400
Message-ID: >
Reply-To: HIX HUNGARY >
From: HIX HUNGARY >
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 1995 00:44:08 EST
X-Publisher: Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
Subject: *** HUNGARY *** #410
To: 

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Issue____________: *** HUNGARY 410 ***
Date_____________: Sun Aug 27 00:44:03 EDT 1995
Publisher________: Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
Disclaimer_______: Authors bear full responsibility for their articles.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Send-Articles-To_: >
Subscribe________: >
Unsubscribe______: >
Help_____________: >
Supervisor_______: >
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

Tartalomjegyzek:
----------------

> Felado : 
> Temakor: WORLD EMAIL DIRECTORY(WED) GET LISTED FREE!! ( 61 sor )

> Felado : 
> Temakor: torles oka: nem a FORUMba valo (fwd) ( 41 sor )

> Felado : 
> Temakor: torles oka: nem a FORUMba valo (fwd) ( 41 sor )

> Felado : 
> Temakor: SCM: torles oka: nem a FORUMba valo (fwd) ( 46 sor )

> Felado : 
> Temakor: Rather not ethnicity ( 52 sor )

> Felado : 
> Temakor: Re: *** HUNGARY *** #409 ( 262 sor )

> =======================================================
> Felado : 
> Temakor: WORLD EMAIL DIRECTORY(WED) GET LISTED FREE!! ( 61 sor )
> Idopont: Sat Aug 26 01:15:56 EDT 1995 HUNGARY #410
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The first WED (World E-Mail Directory) will be published in November
1995 and will be available in printed form, disk and DbaseIII format.

This service will also be available online in Jan.1996.

Private persons can be listed  FREE until Oct. 30th 1995!!
Fill in the form below (only first 4 lines) and send the form by
email or regular mail (preferred).

Companies, Organizations and WEB-sites will pay a nominal fee
per listing (8 lines/1 year/Dfl.  75,-- or US$50/FREE WED copy)
Add Dfl. 25,-- or US$15 for Company Name in Bold.

Your (extra) copy plus free lifetime acceskey for the online service
on publication of the WED can be ordered for an additional Dfl. 25,--
(US$20). Above 5 paid listings and/or paid copies  deduct 25%
discount! All postage paid.

Publication is in the form: (Fill in if you like to order now!)
Please state Lastname, Firstname (i.e. Nico Hendriks=Hendriks,Nico)
________________________________________________________
E-mail address:
Name:
Place/Country :
Branch/Interest:
---below only paid for listings!------------------------------------
Company/Organization:
Web Page /Postal address:

Tel:                                                       Fax:
_________________________________________________________
Please tick:
0    Section America/Canada/South-America (EDU)
0    Section Europe/Africa (EDE)
0    Section Asia/ Australia (EDA)

Additional information such us address, telephone, fax etc. will not
be listed for private persons, unless paid for.
For our administration however we need your address in case you fill
in the order below.

O Please send me ______ pcs. of the WED (World E-mail Directory)
    0  print     0  disk  (3.5 inch )   0 DbaseIII
    Send to Address:

Please fill in the above and email ( )
or send by regular mail to:
De Postel BV (Nico Hendriks), PO Box 6537, HM Eindhoven
Bordeauxlaan 86, NL-5627 GW Eindhoven Holland
________________________________________________
Send  payment quoting your E-mail address to:
Postbank Amsterdam The Netherlands: 6116655
Make cheque or Int. Money Order payable to Nico Hendriks
0 Visa                nr.                                     exp.date

0 Mastercard     nr.                                     exp.date
Cardholders Name on card:
Cardholders can choose to order by fax 00-3140419099

@1995 N.Hendriks  EDE, EDU, EDA and WED are pending Trade Marks
File may be uploaded to BBS, Newsletters etc. Thanks.

> =======================================================
> Felado : 
> Temakor: torles oka: nem a FORUMba valo (fwd) ( 41 sor )
> Idopont: Sat Aug 26 10:22:39 EDT 1995 HUNGARY #410
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Kedves Forumozok es soc.culture.magyar olvasok,

A kovetkezo levelet kaptam a HIX -tol :-)
En elegge mulatsagosnak talalom, remelem masok is igy lesznek vele.

>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 09:43:13 -0400
>From: Hollosi Information Exchange >
>To: 
>Subject: torles oka: nem a FORUMba valo
>


Azt ugyan meg nem tudom melyik levelem lett torolve, ambar, semmi olyant
nem irtam ami ne ferne bele az alabbi katagoriaba:

--
A "HIX Elektronikus Hirugynokseg tajekoztatoja"-bol :

 ..
FORUM
-----

Az olvasok kozeleti temaju irasait, hozzaszolasait, vitait kozli,
moderalas nelkul. Megjelenik minden olyan napon, amelyen iras erkezik be.

 ..
--

En mindkettot teljes mertekben kozeletinek tartottam, irasnak iras volt,
meg a hozzaszolas kategoriaba is belefert volna ;-)
Az egyik level a soc.culture.magyar  archivumot mutatta volna be
http://mineral.umd.edu/soc.culture.magyar/,
a masik egy valasz volt Hollosi Jozsef kisse szarkasztikus
megjegyzesere ( TIPP *** #1853), es fokeppen a "HIX Elektronikus
Hirugynokseg" amerikai es magyar egyetemi forrasok felhasznalasaval
foglalkozott.
Mindket level el lett kuldva a TIPP-be es a FORUM-ba, remelhetoleg
valamelyikben megtalalhato lesz.
Minden jot,
Gotthard

> =======================================================
> Felado : 
> Temakor: torles oka: nem a FORUMba valo (fwd) ( 41 sor )
> Idopont: Sat Aug 26 10:25:15 EDT 1995 HUNGARY #410
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Kedves Forumozok es soc.culture.magyar olvasok,

A kovetkezo levelet kaptam a HIX -tol :-)
En elegge mulatsagosnak talalom, remelem masok is igy lesznek vele.

>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 09:43:13 -0400
>From: Hollosi Information Exchange >
>To: 
>Subject: torles oka: nem a FORUMba valo
>


Azt ugyan meg nem tudom melyik levelem lett torolve, ambar, semmi olyant
nem irtam ami ne ferne bele az alabbi katagoriaba:

--
A "HIX Elektronikus Hirugynokseg tajekoztatoja"-bol :

 ..
FORUM
-----

Az olvasok kozeleti temaju irasait, hozzaszolasait, vitait kozli,
moderalas nelkul. Megjelenik minden olyan napon, amelyen iras erkezik be.

 ..
--

En mindkettot teljes mertekben kozeletinek tartottam, irasnak iras volt,
meg a hozzaszolas kategoriaba is belefert volna ;-)
Az egyik level a soc.culture.magyar  archivumot mutatta volna be
http://mineral.umd.edu/soc.culture.magyar/,
a masik egy valasz volt Hollosi Jozsef kisse szarkasztikus
megjegyzesere ( TIPP *** #1853), es fokeppen a "HIX Elektronikus
Hirugynokseg" amerikai es magyar egyetemi forrasok felhasznalasaval
foglalkozott.
Mindket level el lett kuldva a TIPP-be es a FORUM-ba, remelhetoleg
valamelyikben megtalalhato lesz.
Minden jot,
Gotthard

> =======================================================
> Felado : 
> Temakor: SCM: torles oka: nem a FORUMba valo (fwd) ( 46 sor )
> Idopont: Sat Aug 26 10:33:44 EDT 1995 HUNGARY #410
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Kedves Forumozok es soc.culture.magyar olvasok,

A kovetkezo levelet kaptam a HIX -tol :-)
En elegge mulatsagosnak talalom, remelem masok is igy lesznek vele.

>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 09:43:13 -0400
>From: Hollosi Information Exchange >
>To: 
>Subject: SCM: torles oka: nem a FORUMba valo
>


Azt ugyan meg nem tudom melyik levelem lett torolve, ambar, semmi olyant
nem irtam ami ne ferne bele az alabbi katagoriaba:

--
A "HIX Elektronikus Hirugynokseg tajekoztatoja"-bol :

 ..
FORUM
-----

Az olvasok kozeleti temaju irasait, hozzaszolasait, vitait kozli,
moderalas nelkul. Megjelenik minden olyan napon, amelyen iras erkezik be.

 ..
--

En mindkettot teljes mertekben kozeletinek tartottam, irasnak iras volt,
meg a hozzaszolas kategoriaba is belefert volna ;-)
Az egyik level a soc.culture.magyar  archivumot mutatta volna be
http://mineral.umd.edu/soc.culture.magyar/,
a masik egy valasz volt Hollosi Jozsef kisse szarkasztikus
megjegyzesere ( TIPP *** #1853), es fokeppen a "HIX Elektronikus
Hirugynokseg" amerikai es magyar egyetemi forrasok felhasznalasaval
foglalkozott.
Mindket level el lett kuldva a TIPP-be es a FORUM-ba, remelhetoleg
valamelyikben megtalalhato lesz.
Minden jot,
Gotthard

--
  soc.culture.magyar brought to you by the Hungarian-American List
                  http://mineral.umd.edu/hungary/
--

> =======================================================
> Felado : 
> Temakor: Rather not ethnicity ( 52 sor )
> Idopont: Sat Aug 26 11:56:21 EDT 1995 HUNGARY #410
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Paul has posed the following question:

>Whether you agree or disagree, why would you  think that you'd 'roast in
>hell's fire' for considering the idea.  Do you hate all of the ethnic
>groups in Europe that much to want to see them disappear?

The <idea> being that of ethnic purity.

Yes, I do believe that I should roast in hell's fire for considering, let
alone advocating, ethnic purity BUT I most definitely do not hate any group,
ethnic or otherwise, in Europe or elsewhere.

Also I object somewhat to such a frivolous attribution. If we wish to discuss
the immensely complex and sensitive issues associated with ethnicity on the
net in any meaningful fashion we should make a minimum effort at civility.

There is a strange tendency among the "citoyens" of the net to impute the
most frightful caricature of one's character based on a single remark. Maybe
if we could refrain from this, we could indeed have an exchange of view on
ethnicity.

No, I am not easily hurt, so let me kick it off with a quote from an e-mail
discussion on a different list about a year ago:

<<quote>>

ghyczy:

Ethnicity is not de iure an ideological construct. First and foremost it is a
deep emotional sensation felt by many if not all of us when in contact with
others with the same native language, education, way of life &c.

Anthropologist replies:

        What you describe here are `simply' affiliative emotions which may be
and indeed are experienced by the members of social groups of all primates,
albeit at different scales of group size and with different modes of
expression
of these emotions.  *Ethnicity* is a distinctly human construct born of the
distinctly human capacity for symbolization; seen in historical context, it
is
a construct in which `normal primate' affilitative emotions are coupled with
socially, economically & politically loaded definitions of `us' versus
`them.'

<<unquote>>

Could we start with this? Could we please avoid <pure ethnicity> as something
of total irrelevance (as many have rightly pointed out) in the context of
Hungary (and otherwise)?

Respectfully,        tiha

> =======================================================
> Felado : 
> Temakor: Re: *** HUNGARY *** #409 ( 262 sor )
> Idopont: Sat Aug 26 00:50:42 EDT 1995 HUNGARY #410
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

--%#%NextPart#%#
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


Kedves Felhaszna'lo' !

Levele'nek cimzettje ) postafio'kja't beza'rta.
Levele't, mely a cimzetthez nem jutott el, melle'kelju:k.

Tisztelettel u:dvo:zli a postamester.


Hi,

You have sent a message to a closed postbox .
The remainder of this automatic reply consists of your original
message header and body.

The Postmaster.

#####################################################################
#                                                                   #
#  For more information please contact us via                       #
#                                                                   #
#  RFC822:                                  #
#  X.400 : C=hu; A=0; P=hungarnet; O=iif; S=Polakovics; G=Istvan    #
#  Phone : +36 1 129 48 41                                          #
#  Fax   : +36 1 129 78 66                                          #
#  Mail  : MTA SZTAKI                                               #
#          V. Hugo 18-22                                            #
#          1132 Budapest, Hungary                                   #
#####################################################################

--%#%NextPart#%#
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Received: from HUGBOX.SZTAKI.HU by helka.iif.hu with SMTP (PP);
          Sat, 26 Aug 1995 06:52:25 +0200
Received: from PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (VMMAIL) by HUGBOX (MX V4.1 VAX) with BSMTP;
          Sat, 26 Aug 1995 06:53:20 gmt+2
Received: from PUCC by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (Mailer R2.10 ptf008) with BSMTP
          id 7000; Sat, 26 Aug 95 00:52:06 EDT
Received: from hix.mit.edu by pucc.PRINCETON.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP;
          Sat, 26 Aug 95 00:52:05 EDT
Received: (from ) by hix.mit.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id XAA11552;
          Fri, 25 Aug 1995 23:59:13 -0400
Message-ID: >
Reply-To: HIX HUNGARY >
From: HIX HUNGARY >
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 00:44:07 EST
X-Publisher: Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
Subject: *** HUNGARY *** #409
To: 

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Issue____________: *** HUNGARY 409 ***
Date_____________: Sat Aug 26 00:44:03 EDT 1995
Publisher________: Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
Disclaimer_______: Authors bear full responsibility for their articles.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Send-Articles-To_: >
Subscribe________: >
Unsubscribe______: >
Help_____________: >
Supervisor_______: >
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

Tartalomjegyzek:
----------------

> Felado : Fencsik Gabor
> Temakor: Unscientific Understanding ( 71 sor )

> Felado : 
> Temakor: Re: Unscientific Understanding ( 19 sor )

> Felado : 
> Temakor: Hungarian ABC ( 15 sor )

> Felado : 
> Temakor: Re: living cost in Budapest ( 22 sor )

> =======================================================
> Felado : Fencsik Gabor
> E-mail : 
> Temakor: Unscientific Understanding ( 71 sor )
> Idopont: Fri Aug 25 03:58:10 EDT 1995 HUNGARY #409
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

After meandering around peripheral issues (such as the meaning of
"explanation", whether history is a science or not, and if so, what kind)
Andras Kornai returns to the crux of the question:

> I again challenge the professional historians and history-buffs on
> HUNGARY to come up with a single reason why we should look at things
> prior to 1975 to help us determine how Hungary should act vis a vis
> Romania and Slovakia.

This is a very narrow way of phrasing the question, but it is worth an
answer nevertheless.  "Looking at things prior to 1975" means many
things.  It means looking at events, the various interpretations of
events, received ideas, and their source: the history books from which
generations of schoolkids were taught.  It means taking each collective
obsession (on either side) and tracing it back to its origins.  The point
is to create trust where nothing but distrust exists now.  To create trust,
it is necessary to learn how to avoid each other's neuralgic points.  To
avoid them, you must know where they are.  The neuralgic points all have
to do with history, the way it is taught and the way it is thought about.

The world is full of ethnic conflict and commercial squabbles, but the
conflicts in Eastern Europe have a special flavor to them: they all revolve
around history.  This is because the East European breed of nationalism
-- along with most East European nations themselves -- is the invention of
19th century provincial schoolmasters.  [The process whereby this came
about is described in a brilliant short chapter called The Course of True
Nationalism Never Did Run Smooth, by E. Gellner, in his Nations and
Nationalism.  Everything you ever need to know about the topic is right
there, and it takes only 5 pages.]

Andras presented his modified Ford thesis out of frustration with the
historical "debate" on the late lamented Seton-Watson the Elder.  We
all remember how that went: "He is not an objective source." -- "Yes he
is." -- "No, he's not." -- "Yes he is."  No matter how pointless, this
style of argumentation is still useful as a diagnostic tool.  The
arguments are leading nowhere, because the participants look at the same
landscape and perceive completely different "facts".  How do you deal
with this kind of pathology?  The solution implicitely proposed by
Andras is to stop talking about history, period.

When one is faced with a person suffering from agoraphobia, it is
useless to try to persuade them that their fears are irrational.  It is
far better to try to understand what past experiences caused them to
have those fears and suspicions, to accept why those fears were an
appropriate response to the situation *then*, and to gently persuade
them that it is safe to let go of those fears *now*.  The purpose is
not to debunk or nullify someone's version of history; it is to enable
them to function in spite of that history.  For the technique to work,
one must be able to trace the phobias back to whatever trauma
originally triggered them.  This approach is essentially historical.

To be more explicit, if someone (one of Funar's followers, let's say) has
come to fear hordes of evil, devious Hungarians bent on her destruction,
then it is useless to try to tell her these fears are irrational, or that
they are based on events that never happened.  It might be better to
acknowledge the fears, try to understand how these fears came to be, and
gently persuade her that it is safe to let go of them now.  To do that,
I must be aware that what I was told was a heroic struggle in 1848 to
fight for freedom against the Austrian oppressor was described in *her*
history classes rather differently: she was told it was a punitive
expedition by Hungarian oppressors against defenseless Wallachs.

In a way, we were both taught crap, and it almost does not matter which
version has the larger grain of truth.  From the standpoint of the narrow
operational question posed by Andras, what matters is for both of us to
understand where the fear and distrust come from.  This is very far from
any strict scientific notion of "understanding", but it is a step forward.

-----
Gabor Fencsik


> =======================================================
> Felado : 
> Temakor: Re: Unscientific Understanding ( 19 sor )
> Idopont: Fri Aug 25 06:59:06 EDT 1995 HUNGARY #409
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Gabor's essay elegantly expresses the argument that I also hold on the
usefulness of studying history.  I guess in a way you could say that
history may not tell you what you should do, but could suggest things
_not_ to do, or warn against certain ways of attempting to reach your
goals.  I recently attended in Levoca, Slovakia, a seminar on teaching nation-
alism (where Gellner's name was often mentioned) at which a graduate
assistant from the Central European University talked about his experiences.
(He was, btw, a Hungarian originally from Transylvania but now resident
in Hungary).  Whatever opinion one may hold on the travails of the CEU,
the idea that students from _all_ the regional countries would study
_together_ the phenomenon of nationalism (using, of course, today's
major imperial, and therefore "neutral", language, English) surely is
a practical way of implementing that avoidance of each other's neuralgic
points that Gabor mentions.

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew


> =======================================================
> Felado : 
> Temakor: Hungarian ABC ( 15 sor )
> Idopont: Fri Aug 25 09:58:46 EDT 1995 HUNGARY #409
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Eddig minden kulonosebb problema nelkul hasznaltam magyar
karaktereket DOS-alkalmazasokban a DOS-codpage 852 es
a magyar billentyuzetmeghajto kivalasztasaval (autoexec.bat es
config.sys).
Windows alkalmazasokkal mar bonyolultabb a helyzet, mert a
(nemetorszagban es valoszinuleg mas orszagokban is) hasznalatos
Windows nem tamogatja a magyar billentyuzetet es karaktertablat.
Ezert a szamitogepemen a magyarorszagon kaphato Windows-t is
installaltam a nemet melle, es innen inditom a szokasos
szovegszerkesztomet. Igy mukodnek a magyar betuk es a billentyuzet
is magyar, bar nemet feliratokkal. A magyar betuket filctollal
irtam ra a billenty=FCkre. Ez a legolcsobb megoldas. Ha fontos
a helyesirasellenorzes, a Word for Windows kaphato (Magyarorszagon)
magyar szotarral is.
                        Papp Gellert

> =======================================================
> Felado : 
> Temakor: Re: living cost in Budapest ( 22 sor )
> Idopont: Fri Aug 25 11:44:06 EDT 1995 HUNGARY #409
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Dear sir or mrs,

Hungarian embassies can provide you with a list of
hotel-accomodation of all kinds.

As a (Flemish) Hungary-freak, I visited Budapest already
more or less 20 times during the last 6 years.

However I'm new on Internet and it takes me some time to
give you long answers.

I'll be glad to hear from you if this message arrived.

If you have some more specific questions I probably can
help you with the answers.

I myself am in Budapest again from the 16 th of Sept till
the 20 th of September.

Best regards.

Dirk Apers.


> =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=
> *=
> =* TIPP VITA SZALON FORUM GURU  ||
> *=
> =* HIR KEP MOZAIK RANDI NARANCS ||     Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
> *=
> =* OTTHON MOKA HUNGARY KORNYESZ ||
> *=
> =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=
> *=
> =* Helpfile:    >       || WWW:    http://hix.mit.edu/
> *=
> =* Human touch: > || Finger: 
> *=
> =* -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *=
> =* Hollosi Jozsi. /HIX/  (personal mail only: >)
> *=
> =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=
> *=


--%#%NextPart#%#--