I would like to combine my answer to Gabor Fencsik and to Peter
Hidas here. Let me start with Peter's remarks about the law school between
1954 and 1956.

>The quality of education, as Eva correctly pointed out, was very
>poor. The only time I was at a court when three students were tried and
>condemned to three years for cracking jokes at the expense of Rakosi. We
>simply memorized textbooks and occasionally attended lectures. At the
>seminars the assistant professor simply  explained the lecture in details.
>There were no mock trials, debates on points-of-law. There was no
>inter-action, challenge, etc. You could become a good lawyer in Hungary -
>after university and only in certain areas, mostly civil law. Hungary at
>that time was basically a police state, a lawless society.

        Of course, I completely agree with him. The legal education people
received in those days was distorted and today would be considered
worthless. Unfortunately, this was very much true about the faculty of arts
as well. Our professors were the most notorious demagogues in the history of
post-war literary criticism: the infamous Gabor Tolnai was my professor of
Old Hungarian Literature. (I hate to admit but he liked me very much.) One
had to memorize the details of his published "notes" and regurgitate them at
exam times. The same situation existed in classes on World Literature,
perhaps worse: there you had a very thick "Book of Texts," which included
bits and pieces of the classics from the Greeks to Goethe. (We got to the
end of the 18th century at the end of the second year.) So, 90 percent of
the people never read any one of these classics in their entirety, only the
"selections." (I, as an overeachever, spent my summers reading Rousseau,
Goethe, and Schiller. I am glad I did because I certainly would have read
them later in life.) Psychology began with Pavlov's dog and ended with
Pavlov's dog. It was extremely primitive "psychology," if you could call it
that. There was still two more years of compulsory Russian--teaching was
poor and nobody learned much. In fact, I forgot most of my Russian in the
two years I attended ELTE. First year we took "political economy" at the law
school. A Soviet textbook of so-called economics had to be memorized--it was
pretty thick I recall. The contents I don't remember. Second year, there was
an uplifting "Marxism-Leninism-Stalinism" seminar Monday mornings at 8 a.m.
(What a brutal day and what a brutal hour. It meant that one's weekend,
Sunday, to be precise, had to be spend to read the glorious works of Lenin
and Stalin! Our trick was that we divided the texts among ourselves and we
carried on our uplifting discussions of these classic texts of
Marxism-Leninism-Stalinism in this manner.)

        And now I come to Gabor Fencsik's observations:

> The successes
>of the 1956 emigration in the West, and the fact that many of the best
>schools in engineering and the sciences managed to turn out a number
>of world-class people without interruption, shows that there have always
>been islands of quality teaching left, even in the years of the worst
>political repression.  The humanities were always vulnerable to political
>pressure, but formulating the 'party line' in Abelian group theory or
>quantum electrodynamics is a much tougher nut.

        Peter's and my experiences at the same university and at the same
time don't exclude what Gabor is talking about here. First of all, the
student emigration was self-selecting, and the best and most active
students, with leadership quality, were the ones who mostly left the country
after November 4. At least this was the case in my class: there were only
two "tudomanyos egyszakos" students. Both left: one to France and the other
to Canada. From classes above me those who left were all outstanding
students. To be smart but to be caught in a mediocre educational system is a
frustrating experience and leaving and studying abroad might have been also
enticing to these students. Also, the most curious, those who wanted to know
the world better, were most likely the first ones to leave. And, of course,
a lot of them were politically active during the revolution and they escaped
from certain jail sentence or worse.

        But if someone would think that our memories of those years are
distorted perhaps a few quotation concerning education in those years from a
historian of education (Jozsef Kardos) might help here. Talking about the
educational reform of September 1950, Kardos has to say the following: "The
reforms lowered quality: attendance was made compulsory, the lectures had to
follow "notes" or "textbooks," seminars had to follow the material of the
lectures. Thus the university teaching didn't allow any research activity or
rather didn't allow any independent study in depth." (Magyarorszag
tortenete, 1918-1990, p. 309).

>I went to the Law School of ELTE between 1954 and 1956 after spending one
>year at the Law School at Szeged. I do not recall any problem with students
>of peasant and working class origin, in fact, most of the students were of
>middle class origin. There was no thesis requirement on the undergraduate
>level.

        It is possible that the law school had fewer "szakerettsegis." The
faculty of arts was full of them. I am almost certain that close to half the
class came from these fast-track high school students. As I said, some of
them were very good, others really should not have been studying at a
university. And as far as I know no one ever failed. In fact, almost
everybody got good grades. There was already grade inflation at the faculty
of arts at ELTE. You really had to be very bad to get an equivalent of a
"C." (Sorry, I am taking it back: there was one person who did fail East
European History. Today he is a well known poet--practically a household
name. I don't think he cracked a book before going in to take the oral exam.
So, it wasn't question of brains. He didn't have any interest in his
studies. He never finished university either.)


        As far as ELTE being the best university of Hungary, I stick by my
opinion. The BME is not really a university as far as I am concerned. It is
an engineering school. There is a distinction in Hungarian between
"tudomanyegyetem" and "muegyetem." And among the "tudomanyegyetemek" ELTE
has the best reputation, and, of course, it is the oldest Hungarian university.

        Eva Balogh'

At 02:32 PM 8/14/97 -0400, Jeliko wrote:
>Eva Balogh writes (most deleted):
>
>>        As far as ELTE being the best university of Hungary, I stick by my
>>opinion. The BME is not really a university as far as I am concerned. It is
>>an engineering school.

>I agree with most of the deleted stuff but the last paragraph got my blood
>pressure high. Based on the described experience at ELTE, I would state that
>the BME was not
>only a good engineering school but a better university than ELTE. One of my
>orals in math was a question out of the blue : Do you know if Frederic the
>Great could write?

        This may be a lovely story--as Gabor Fencsik mentioned but that
still doesn't make a "muegyetem" a "tudomanyegyetem." After all, only
engineering degrees were awarded at BME. I do understand that you got a good
education at BME; so did my father when it was still named after Archduke
Joseph. But it wasn't a university the way Harvard, Yale, Stanford is a
university. There must be, to my mind, a "universality" to a university. As
the matter of fact nowadays this whole question of what constitutes a
university is being discussed at some length in the Hungarian press and in
scientific circles. There has been a tendency in Hungarian higher education
to decentralize: there are separate universities for economics, engineering,
agricultural sciences, music, medicine, veterinary medicine, etc., etc. ad
infinitum. And with this tendency comes repetition and waste. Just to give
an obvious example: it is not enough to have one department of French,
English, or German at ELTE. There has to be many, many departments: every
so-called university and "foiskola" (Hochschule) in the city needs one. It
is becoming more and more obvious to Hungarian educators that to teach only
the "chosen subjects" is not quite enough in our complex world. Thus, more
and more specialized "universities" introduce subjects like sociology,
history, business courses, and so on and so forth. Thus, the odd situation
can occur that the rector of the School of Economics until his recent death
was a sociologist.

Eva Balogh

I just checked the Hungarian Radio's news (at noon) and it was
announced that Torgyan received a clean bill of health from the lustration
committee. He is demanding the resignation of the minister of interior who
indicated earlier that he was an agent.
        Somehow I have the feeling that this is not the end of the story but
we will see. Eva Balogh

At 12:23 PM 8/14/97 -0700, Gabor Fencsik wrote:

>Lovely story.  Self-selected or not, the solid success of innumerable
>Hungarian emigrees in the West (in  engineering, science, business, or
>finance) shows that there is some constant ingredient in the Hungarian
>educational system that has been preserved from the late 1800s to the
>present, and one that even the dark years of the forties and fifties
>could not quite erase.  And this in spite of the fact that the Hungarian
>educational system was always both authoritarian and elitist -- even
>in the era where the authoritarianism and elitism were hidden behind a
>veneer of egalitarian rhetoric.
>
>Authoritarianism and elitism are both anathema to the prevailing Western
>educational dogma as reflected in current American educational practices.
>Politically incorrect as they may be, they seem to work, at least in
>the sense that the top 10 percent of Hungarian university graduates
>will compare favorably with the top 10 percent of university graduates
>anywhere else.  What happens to the other 90 percent is another matter...

        Yes, I agree with both of your propositions: we somehow managed to
survive the vicissitudes of the 40s and the 50s. Honestly, I don't know how.
Half the time I wasn't in school in my first four years of my formal
schooling. (It is true though that my parents hired a private teacher to
fill in the gaps caused by the war years caused by the constant air raids
and closing of schools. But in the school year of 1944-45, I don't think I
attended more than two or three months out of nine or ten.) The change of
regime in 1948-49 was also devastating. After the nationalization of schools
there were simply no textbooks until about January! And you should have
encountered our new teachers. Only God knows where they came from, but they
were singularly bad. So bad, that even in grade seven I knew that they were
terrible! History was taught by a real idiot. We began with the primitive
man and perhaps by Christmas break we got to Mesopotamia, but I am not sure.
He especially liked to imitate the primitive man trying out different fruits
and vegetables and the result of his experiments! In grade eight we had to
switch from German or French (in my case French) to Russian. The Russian
teacher was a couple of lessons ahead of us. I bet that a Russian wouldn't
have recognized his own language if he heard us trying to converse in his
mother tongue! Next year in high school, we began learning Russian again,
starting from scratch. Same book, different teacher. She was at least a year
ahead of us and she was intelligent: she studied both at the Sorbonne and at
the University of Vienna before the war. The teaching of the sciences was
below standards and mathematics and physics were taught traditionally badly
at a girls' gymnasium. In those days high schools were not coeducated.

        As for the elitist and authoritarian nature of education in Hungary
I agree with Gabor that it was successful while the more egalitarian systems
seem to work less well. The problem in Hungary is the incredible discrepancy
between Budapest schools and schools situated in other larger cities. The
ranking of these schools (I remember seeing at least one of the rankings a
couple of years ago) clearly shows the incredible difference between the
schools of Budapest and the schools of other cities. My former high school
in Pecs is one of the higher-ranking schools, but it is still ranks only
about the twentieth in the nation. This kind of discrepancy shouldn't really
exist and should be remedied somehow. I am hoping that with a certain amount
of decentralization the dividing line between Budapest and the rest of the
country will be less sharp.

        There is however a new danger: teaching as a profession will
be--just like in other western countries--less and less desirable as a
profession. I am not quite sure how to remedy this particular problem. If
teaching looses its prestige as a profession the quality of education will
certainly suffer. It may have suffered already.

        And another thought. Don't you think that specialization, already at
the high school level, will produce people with very little general
knowledge? In one of the recent HVGs I saw a "portrait" of a young man who
is the new president of the Baloldali Ifjusagi Tarsulas (the MSZP's youth
group). He received--and hold your breath--a "vizugyi erettsegi." A
matriculation in water conservancy. (At least according to Mr. Orszagh that
is what "vizugy" means.

        Eva Balogh

At 08:03 PM 8/14/97 GMT, Dominus wrote:
>"E.S. Balogh" > wrote:
>>Re: A change of topic.
>
>Or is it?:
>
>>        A few days ago I read an interesting piece of news. Some time ago a
>>journalist wanted to read the 1954 J.D. dissertation of Jozsef Torgyan, head
>>of the Smallholders' Party, and the dissertation of Gyula Horn that earned
>>him the now defunct title of "kandidatus."....
>>        As to the outcome. Mr. Torgyan's dissertation was nothing but a....
>>        I would be curious what you think of this incident. ESB
>>
>Not much. If the librarians wouldn't "defend" the
>politicians, ESB would. And she does. At least the
>transplants fom the ancien regime ( Horn, in this instant.).
>What happened? No comments on Horn's paper? Sometimes we can
>learn more from ESB's omissions, than from any history she
>presents.

        Well, dear Dominus, or whatever your name is, I didn't comment on it
because there was no news on it in the internet Hirmondo. If there had been
I would have.
        But since then there was some news in the Internet edition of
Nepszabadsag. According to that piece of news, Horn said that he didn't know
why the librarian should consider his dissertation secret and as far as he
was concerned anyone can read it to his heart content. The journalist did
and found that it was a decent piece of work on Yugoslavia's economics. If
you are not satisfied with that explanation you can always go to Hungary and
read it yourself.
        Eva Balogh

At 10:28 PM 8/14/97 +0200, MKH (otherwise Miklos Hoffmann) wrote:
>E.S. Balogh wrote:
>>
>
> The BME is not really a university as far as I am concerned. It is
>> an engineering school.
>
>Like MIT. The statement speaks for itself. Volumes.
>MKH

        It sure does--speak volumes. MIT means Massachusetts Institute of
Technology. It is not called a university. Bye, ESB

In a message dated 97-08-14 03:28:20 EDT, you write:

<<  the
 exceptional beauty and stamina of Hungarian girls. That Hungary's gene
 pool spawns an inordinately high percentage of female beauties is lore
 among visitors to this country, >>


Hmm! Makes one rather happy that one has been married to a Hungarian for over
40 years. !!!!!

Donald C.

E.S. Balogh wrote:
>
> At 10:43 PM 8/13/97 +0200, Miklos Hoffmann wrote:
> >E.S. Balogh wrote:
> >>
> >>        And one more general observation. Academic standards have never
> >> before or after were so low as in those days. I know it from personal
> >> experience because in the same year Mr. Torgyan graduated I began my
 studies
> >> at ELTE.
> >
> >This may have been true for ELTE, >the best university of the
> >country< ( as stated ). I did believe the same about about
> >BME until ( after 56 ) the first BME students entered final exams at one
> >of the finest German universities. It turned out, that - quite a number
> >of top capacities still being around - the BME managed to foster
> >the atmosphere of challange and quality. The Hungarians made an
> >excelent show - and they were surprised themselves.
> >Today, I am no longer quite so sure about the present standards. The
> >appear to me to be lower than then. Mind you, it is not the system to be
> >credited for this. It was the personnel maintaining higy pro-
> >fessional standards.
>
>         It was possible that it was different in the sciences and
> engineering. This is what you are talking about. However, the humanities and
> the law, the ones I am taking about, are something else. And yes, I hold up
> that the law they taught between 1950 and 1954 wasn't much. History wasn't
> much either. And please, stop telling me what I can and what I cannot say. I
> find it tiresome. Eva Balogh
I repeat, I do not like Dr. Torgyan. And still, I would be more cautious
before jumping to such judgments. I find them tiresome. The general
reaction goes in the same direction. And, of course, I won4t stop, if I
feel like, telling the list, what my opinion is about statements made in
the list.
MKH

Dies ist eine mehrteilige Nachricht im MIME-Format.

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E.S. Balogh wrote:
>
>         According to the Magyar Hirlap (August 14, Thursday) Torgyan will
> have a press conference tomorrow at which he will make the announcement
> concerning the findings of the lustration committee. That ought to be
> interesting!!
>         Meanwhile, again according to Magyar Hirlap, those recruited by the
> secret service usually reported as well. You may recall that Istvan Csurka
> although admitted that he was recruited denied that he ever reported. The
> Magyar Hirlap talked to Jozsef Horvath who had held an important position in
> the III/III section of the Interior Ministry, where the agents reported on
> their fellow citizens.
>         Eva Balogh
For those in command of Hungarian, I attach a report of the Nepszabasag
of this morning ( 8-14-97 )
Miklos

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440 HEIGHT=3D65>

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    <TABLE WIDTH=3D440 BORDER=3D0><TR>

      <TD ALIGN=3DLEFT VALIGN=3DTOP><I><B>55. =E9vfolyam, 189. sz=E1m</B>=
</I></TD>

      <TD ALIGN=3DRIGHT VALIGN=3DTOP><I><B>1997. augusztus 14., cs=FCt=F6=
rt=F6k</B></I></TD>

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  <TR><TD COLSPAN=3D2>

  <FONT SIZE=3D+2><B>A b=EDr=E1k szerint Torgy=E1n nem volt =FCgyn=F6k</B=
></FONT><BR>

  <I><B>Annak sincs nyoma, hogy a kisgazda eln=F6k ellen 1957-ben b=FCnte=
t=F5elj=E1r=E1s indult</B></I><P>

  =


<P>

<B>A N=E9pszabads=E1g inform=E1ci=F3i szerint az =E1tvil=E1g=EDt=F3b=EDr=F3=
k nem tal=E1lt=E1k =E9rintettnek az =FCgyn=F6kt=F6rv=E9nyben Torgy=E1n J=F3=
zsefet =96 err=F5l a kisgazda eln=F6k ma sajt=F3t=E1j=E9koztat=F3n sz=E1m=
ol be. V=E9lhet=F5en ismerteti a Kuncze G=E1bor bel=FCgyminiszterrel foly=
tatott levelez=E9s=E9t is. Kuncze Torgy=E1nnak =EDrt level=E9b=F5l az is =
kider=FCl: a BM rendelkez=E9s=E9re =E1ll=F3 okm=E1nyok nem tartalmaznak o=
lyan adatot, amely arra utalna, hogy Torgy=E1n ellen forradalmi magatart=E1=
sa miatt 1957-ben b=FCntet=F5elj=E1r=E1st ind=EDtottak volna, pedig ezt a=
 kisgazd=E1k eln=F6ke t=F6bbsz=F6r =E1ll=EDtotta, s=F5t az =E1ll=EDt=F3la=
gos gyan=FAs=EDtotti jegyz=F5k=F6nyvet az FKGP publik=E1lta is. </P>

</B>

</B><P>

<P>

<P>



  <P><HR><P>

  =


<P>

Az =E1tvil=E1g=EDt=F3b=EDr=F3k bizony=EDt=E1si elj=E1r=E1s elrendel=E9s=E9=
vel az id=E9n j=FAnius 19-=E9n kezdt=E9k meg <I>Torgy=E1n J=F3zsef</I> =E1=
tvil=E1g=EDt=E1s=E1t. El=F5z=F5leg <I>Kuncze G=E1bort=F3l</I> azt a jelz=E9=
st kapt=E1k, hogy a Bel=FCgyminiszt=E9rium adatai szerint a kisgazda eln=F6=
k egykor az =FCgyn=F6kt=F6rv=E9ny els=F5 paragrafus=E1ban meghat=E1rozott=
 tev=E9kenys=E9get v=E9gzett. E passzus hat=E1lya al=E1 azok tartoznak, a=
kiket az egykori titkosszolg=E1latok III/III-as =FCgyoszt=E1lya, illetve =
annak jogel=F5dje beszervezett, a bels=F5 elh=E1r=EDt=E1snak jelent=E9st =
adtak, s ez=E9rt illetm=E9nyt kaptak vagy m=E1s el=F5nyben r=E9szes=FClte=
k.

</P>

<P>

Az =E1tvil=E1g=EDt=F3k a BM-t=F5l olyan adatokat kaptak, amelyek szerint =
Torgy=E1nr=F3l vezettek nyilv=E1ntart=E1st, =E9s fed=F5n=E9vvel =96 Szatm=
=E1ri Lajos =96 is ell=E1tt=E1k. Ezek az adatok egybev=E1gtak Torgy=E1n 1=
991-es =E1tvil=E1g=EDt=E1s=E1nak eredm=E9ny=E9vel, amikor a kisgazda eln=F6=
k nem volt hajland=F3 =E1tvenni bor=EDt=E9kj=E1t Antall J=F3zseft=F5l. </=
P>

<P>

Az =E1tvil=E1g=EDt=F3b=EDr=E1k egy=E9bk=E9nt terjedelmes iratanyagot gy=FB=
jt=F6ttek =F6ssze, amelynek alapj=E1n rekonstru=E1lhat=F3 az =E1llambizto=
ns=E1gi szervek kontaktusa Torgy=E1nnal. Az 1956-os forradalom =E9s szaba=
ds=E1gharc =FAjpesti r=E9sztvev=F5i, K=F3sa P=E1l =E9s t=E1rsai ellen 195=
8. janu=E1r 6-=E1n ny=FAjtottak be v=E1diratot =E9s 1959 m=E1rcius=E1ban,=
 illetve j=FAlius=E1ban sz=FCletett meg az I., illetve II. fok=FA =EDt=E9=
let. A per XXVI-od rend=FB v=E1dlottja volt Gy=F5ri Tibor, akit I. fokon =
9, II. fokon 4 =E9vi b=F6rt=F6nb=FCntet=E9sre =EDt=E9ltek. A Gy=F5ri elle=
ni vizsg=E1lati elj=E1r=E1s sor=E1n hallgatt=E1k meg tan=FAk=E9nt Torgy=E1=
n J=F3zsefet. A tan=FAk=E9nt val=F3 kihallgat=E1snak az is c=E9lja lehete=
tt, hogy Torgy=E1nra nyom=E1st gyakoroljanak =E9s beszervezz=E9k. Ennek e=
l=F5k=E9sz=EDt=E9se m=E1sf=E9l-k=E9t h=F3napig tartott. A beszervez=E9sr=F5=
l dosszi=E9 k=E9sz=FClt, amely az akkori iratkezel=E9s szab=E1lyainak meg=
felel=F5en felt=FCnteti a beszervez=E9sben, illetve a kapcsolattart=E1sba=
n r=E9szt vev=F5 tiszteket, V=E1ri J=F3zsefet, dr. T=EDm=E1r S=E1ndort, d=
r. Csik=F3s Imr=E9t =E9s m=E1sokat. A felsoroltak k=F6z=FCl t=F6bben ma i=
s =E9letben vannak. Torgy=E1nr=F3l ki=E1ll=EDtottak egy =FAgynevezett 6-o=
s kartont, amelyet minden beszervezett szem=E9lyr=F5l =96 valamint azokr=F3=
l, akiknek a beszervez=E9se meghi=FAsult =96 ki kellett t=F6lteni. Felfek=
tettek r=F3la egy =FAgynevezett =84B-dosszi=E9t=94, amelyet a h=E1l=F3zat=
i szem=E9lyekre vonatkoz=F3 =F6sszes anyagok elhelyez=E9s=E9re kellett ha=
szn=E1lni. </P>

<P>

Az =E1tvil=E1g=EDt=F3b=EDr=F3k mindemellett nem tal=E1lt=E1k bizony=EDt=E9=
k=E1t annak, hogy Torgy=E1n jelent=E9st adott az =E1llambiztons=E1gi szer=
veknek. Amennyire tudni lehet, a b=EDr=F3i test=FClet el=F5tt megjelent, =
m=E9g =E9l=F5 =E1llambiztons=E1gi tisztek t=F6bbnyire nem eml=E9keztek To=
rgy=E1nra, mint ahogy olyan t=F6rt=E9n=E9sekre sem, amelyeket annak idej=E9=
n al=E1=EDr=E1sukkal tan=FAs=EDtottak; m=E1s momentumokra pedig egym=E1st=
=F3l elt=E9r=F5 m=F3don eml=E9keztek. </P>



<P>

Annak =EDr=E1sos nyom=E1t megtal=E1lt=E1k az =E1tvil=E1g=EDt=F3k, hogy <I=
>Torgy=E1n J=F3zsef</I> (k=E9p=FCnk=F6n), miut=E1n elhagyta az ideggy=F3g=
yint=E9zetet =96 t=F6bb h=F3nappal beszervez=E9se ut=E1n =96, ism=E9t tal=
=E1lkozott az =E1llambiztons=E1gi hat=F3s=E1g k=E9pvisel=F5j=E9vel. Mag=E1=
n=E9let=E9nek neh=E9zs=E9geire, a s=FAlyos idegi megterhel=E9sre panaszko=
dott, egy=FAttal kifejezte =E1llampolg=E1ri lojalit=E1s=E1t. A vele folyt=
atott besz=E9lget=E9s summ=E1zatak=E9nt az =E1llambiztons=E1gi tiszt azt =
r=F6gz=EDtette, hogy Torgy=E1n jelenlegi =E1llapot=E1ban nem foglalkoztat=
hat=F3.

</P>

<P>

Az esem=E9nyek rekonstru=E1l=E1sa alapj=E1n ezt k=F6vet=F5en ker=FClt Tor=
gy=E1n a megtorl=E1sok miatt h=EDrhedt=E9 v=E1lt Tutsek-tan=E1cshoz b=EDr=
=F3s=E1gi jegyz=F5k=F6nyvvezet=F5nek. Ottani tev=E9kenys=E9ge ut=E1n lett=
 =FCgyv=E9djel=F6lt, majd =FCgyv=E9d. </P>

<P>

A <I>N=E9pszabads=E1g</I> inform=E1ci=F3i szerint Torgy=E1n J=F3zsef megh=
allgat=E1sa a bizotts=E1g el=F5tt fesz=FClt l=E9gk=F6rben kezd=F5d=F6tt, =
a p=E1rteln=F6k igen s=FAlyos kifejez=E9seket haszn=E1lt az =FCgy=E9ben e=
llene emelt v=E1dakat, az elj=E1r=E1st min=F5s=EDtve. El=F5sz=F6r visszau=
tas=EDtotta a B-dosszi=E9 tanulm=E1nyoz=E1s=E1t, amely a beszervez=E9s ak=
tus=E1nak r=F6gz=EDt=E9s=E9n t=FAlmen=F5en egyebek k=F6zt tartalmazza min=
dazt, amit Gy=F5ri Tibor =FCgy=E9ben folytatott kihallgat=E1sai alkalm=E1=
val elmondott. K=E9s=F5bb azonban k=E9sznek mutatkozott a dosszi=E9 =E1tn=
=E9z=E9s=E9re. Ezt k=F6vet=F5en sz=F3l=EDtotta fel a bel=FCgyminisztert, =
hogy hozza nyilv=E1noss=E1gra =84mikor =E9s hol adtam =E1t saj=E1t kez=FB=
leg =EDrt h=E1l=F3zati feladatok v=E1llal=E1s=E1ra vonatkoz=F3 nyilatkoza=
tot =E9s mikor, kir=F5l, hol adtam jelent=E9st, vagy kaptam ilyen=E9rt pr=
=E9miumot, illetve kedvezm=E9nyt, vagy vonja vissza a megalapozatlan, a h=
amis v=E1d meg=E1llap=EDt=E1s=E1ra alkalmas 1995. november 29-=E9n kelt l=
ev=E9lben foglalt r=E1galmaz=F3 t=E9ny=E1ll=EDt=E1st.=94 (Torgy=E1n arra =
az =E1ll=EDt=E1sra utalt e mondat=E1val, amely szerint az =FCgyn=F6kt=F6r=
v=E9nyben meghat=E1rozott tev=E9kenys=E9get v=E9gzett). </P>

<P>

Lapunk parlamenti forr=E1sokb=F3l sz=E1rmaz=F3 =E9rtes=FCl=E9se szerint K=
uncze G=E1bor Torgy=E1nhoz =EDrt v=E1laszlevel=E9ben lesz=F6gezte, hogy T=
orgy=E1n k=E9r=E9se nem jogszer=FB, a bel=FCgyminiszternek ugyanis nincs =
t=F6rv=E9nyes felhatalmaz=E1sa a vizsg=E1lat alatt =E1ll=F3 szem=E9lyekre=
 vonatkoz=F3 iratok =E1tad=E1s=E1ra. Kuncze utalt r=E1, hogy a Torgy=E1nr=
a vonatkoz=F3 dokumentumokat m=E1r tov=E1bb=EDtotta az ellen=F5rz=E9st v=E9=
gz=F5 b=EDr=F3i bizotts=E1ghoz. K=F6vetkez=E9sk=E9ppen a BM-ben nincsenek=
 olyan iratok, amelyek alapj=E1n a nyilv=E1noss=E1gra hozatalra vonatkoz=F3=
 k=E9r=E9s teljes=EDthet=F5 volna. </P>

<P>

Kuncze level=E9nek egy figyelemre m=E9lt=F3 pontja szerint a rendelkez=E9=
sre =E1ll=F3 okm=E1nyok, illetve nyilv=E1ntart=E1sok nem tartalmaznak oly=
an adatot, amely arra utalna, hogy Torgy=E1n ellen forradalmi magatart=E1=
sa miatt 1957 tavasz=E1n b=FCntet=F5elj=E1r=E1st ind=EDtottak volna. Kunc=
ze szerint sem az =DAjpesti Forradalmi Bizotts=E1g tagjai ellen ind=EDtot=
t vizsg=E1lat anyag=E1ban, sem m=E1s iratokban nem lelhet=F5 fel az a jeg=
yz=F5k=F6nyv, amely szerint Torgy=E1nt gyan=FAs=EDtottk=E9nt hallgatt=E1k=
 volna ki. Ez kett=F5j=FCk n=E9zetk=FCl=F6nbs=E9g=E9nek az =E1tvil=E1g=ED=
t=E1s =FCgy=E9n t=FAlmutat=F3 dimenzi=F3t ad: a Torgy=E1n =E1ltal szem=E9=
lyesen j=F3v=E1hagyott FKGP-dokumentumgy=FBjtem=E9nyben ugyanis l=E1that=F3=
 egy t=F6bboldalas gyan=FAs=EDtotti kihallgat=E1si jegyz=F5k=F6nyv f=E9ny=
m=E1solata, =E9s a p=E1rteln=F6k t=F6bbsz=F6r nyilatkozott a hazai =E9s a=
 k=FClf=F6ldi sajt=F3nak arr=F3l, hogy a forradalomban val=F3 akt=EDv r=E9=
szv=E9tele miatt ellene b=FCntet=F5elj=E1r=E1st ind=EDtottak.

</P>

<P>

=DAgy tudjuk, hogy az =E1tvil=E1g=EDt=F3k az adatok =E9s a tan=FAvallom=E1=
sok m=E9rlegel=E9se alapj=E1n v=E9g=FCl is arra az =E1ll=E1spontra jutott=
ak, hogy Torgy=E1n nincs =E9rintve az =FCgyn=F6kt=F6rv=E9nyben. D=F6nt=E9=
s=FCkh=F6z r=E9szletes indokl=E1st csatoltak. </P>

<P>

A teljes kisgazdafrakci=F3 v=E1rhat=F3an szeptember elej=E9n hozza nyilv=E1=
noss=E1gra =E1tvil=E1g=EDt=E1s=E1nak az eredm=E9ny=E9t. <I>Ger=F3cs J=F3z=
sef</I> kisgazda honatya id=F5k=F6zben a <I>Kur=EDrban</I> meger=F5s=EDte=
tte, hogy az =E1tvil=E1g=EDt=F3k =F5t elmarasztalt=E1k, de a d=F6nt=E9s m=
egfellebbezte a F=F5v=E1rosi B=EDr=F3s=E1gon.

</P><P>

<P>

<P>



  </TD></TR>



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--------------49BA63B649FD--

Gabor Fencsik wrote:
>
> Jeliko writes:
>
> > Based on the described experience at ELTE, I would state that the BME
> > was not only a good engineering school but a better university than ELTE.
> > One of my orals in math was a question out of the blue : Do you know if
> > Frederic the Great could write? My stumbling answer was yes, why do you
> > think so was the follow on. When I stated that to my knowledge Voltaire was
> > correcting his poems, it was the end of the exam. Whe I asked is that all,
> > I got the answer, well if you know this much about what is not your
> > subject, I expect you to know math. I wonder what would have been the
> > answer at the "other place" across the river.
>
> Lovely story.  Self-selected or not, the solid success of innumerable
> Hungarian emigrees in the West (in  engineering, science, business, or
> finance) shows that there is some constant ingredient in the Hungarian
> educational system that has been preserved from the late 1800s to the
> present, and one that even the dark years of the forties and fifties
> could not quite erase.  And this in spite of the fact that the Hungarian
> educational system was always both authoritarian and elitist -- even
> in the era where the authoritarianism and elitism were hidden behind a
> veneer of egalitarian rhetoric.
>
> Authoritarianism and elitism are both anathema to the prevailing Western
> educational dogma as reflected in current American educational practices.
> Politically incorrect as they may be, they seem to work, at least in
> the sense that the top 10 percent of Hungarian university graduates
> will compare favorably with the top 10 percent of university graduates
> anywhere else.  What happens to the other 90 percent is another matter...
>
Both messages - the one of Jeliko and the one of Gabor Fencsik -
a fejen talajak a szeget - hit the nail on the head.
Miklos Hoffmann

E.S. Balogh wrote:
>

 The BME is not really a university as far as I am concerned. It is
> an engineering school.

Like MIT. The statement speaks for itself. Volumes.
MKH

"E.S. Balogh" > wrote:
>Re: A change of topic.

Or is it?:

>        A few days ago I read an interesting piece of news. Some time ago a
>journalist wanted to read the 1954 J.D. dissertation of Jozsef Torgyan, head
>of the Smallholders' Party, and the dissertation of Gyula Horn that earned
>him the now defunct title of "kandidatus."....
>        As to the outcome. Mr. Torgyan's dissertation was nothing but a....
>        I would be curious what you think of this incident. ESB
>
Not much. If the librarians wouldn't "defend" the
politicians, ESB would. And she does. At least the
transplants fom the ancien regime ( Horn, in this instant.).

What happened? No comments on Horn's paper? Sometimes we can
learn more from ESB's omissions, than from any history she
presents.
Since when ESB filled with the revolutionary spirit of '56
can march instep with the "pufajkas" Horn?
>
>        I would be curious what you think of this incident. ESB
>
Me too. Dominus

Ps:
Anybody neticed? I'm back from the hospital, and every day I
can do a little more!
The sun shines, Eva omits (no, no rhyme for  _this_  one),
and Dominus is a happy fella!
Love you all, Eva and Istvan included!
D.

"E.S. Balogh" > wrote:


>        As far as ELTE being the best university of Hungary, I stick by my
>opinion. The BME is not really a university as far as I am concerned. It is
>an engineering school. There is a distinction in Hungarian between
>"tudomanyegyetem" and "muegyetem." And among the "tudomanyegyetemek" ELTE
>has the best reputation, and, of course, it is the oldest Hungarian
university.
>
>        Eva Balogh'
>
I think, you know that this statement is stupid. Lippai
Istvan might say such things about "humanistic" education
(and he is joking). Balogh Eva should not (especially when
she is not joking)!
Tsk, tsk...!
Dominus

Hi all:

I have a weeny request - to all of you!

Some time ago, I posted an inquiry to you all regarding your interest in
the World kayak and canoe champs - specifically related to the Hungarians.
Thanks to all for the private responses, the volume of which dictated it
worthwhile to post this to the group.

1)  The Hungarian team at large will be arriving into Canada on the 15th.
(Some are already here in preparation, ie; technical directors.)

2)  For any wishing to do so, please feel free to use my Email address for
'good wishes' and or congrats.  You may also send faxes to:  (902) 861-3522
and rest assured that the team will receive all.

Officially, the games will begin on the 20th and will have concluded by the
25th.  The Hungarian Association is sending a delegation of over 60 at this
moment (changing daily).  We are looking forward to a successful event all
the way around, and again in '98 when the World Championships are being
held in Szeged for those of you who are interested.

Please advise if I should post results to the group or to you personally.
Of course, http://www.canoe97.org will give you almost instant results if
all works as per plans?

Btw; The World Junior Champs, (Lahti Finland, age group 18 and under) with
48 participating countries, Hungary ranked 1st, Canada 9th, US 19th.
During the games, faxes emails of good wishes and/or congrats were
received.  I'd have never believed how much such means to the athletes,
'till I witnessed their reactions first hand.  It's absolutely amazing to
see the lift in their psyche.  The Juniors upon returning to the hotel
after their races each day actually looked for them.  Once receiving them,
were quickly distributed to read and the next day prior to races were
pasted to their tents at the race course; in case anyone missed the reading
 ....Such leads me to my request; please consider to support the Hungarian
Team .... via good wishes and or congrats?  It does. really make a
difference...immediately and in real life.

Thanks muchly in advance,
Aniko

At 06:52 PM 8/14/97 -0400, Eva Balogh wrote:
>        I just checked the Hungarian Radio's news (at noon) and it was
>announced that Torgyan received a clean bill of health from the lustration
>committee. He is demanding the resignation of the minister of interior who
>indicated earlier that he was an agent.

Torgyan starts every speech of his asking for someone (usually Horn) to resign.

>        Somehow I have the feeling that this is not the end of the story but
>we will see.

I have the same hunch.

Gabor D. Farkas

Jeliko writes:

> Based on the described experience at ELTE, I would state that the BME
> was not only a good engineering school but a better university than ELTE.
> One of my orals in math was a question out of the blue : Do you know if
> Frederic the Great could write? My stumbling answer was yes, why do you
> think so was the follow on. When I stated that to my knowledge Voltaire was
> correcting his poems, it was the end of the exam. Whe I asked is that all,
> I got the answer, well if you know this much about what is not your
> subject, I expect you to know math. I wonder what would have been the
> answer at the "other place" across the river.

Lovely story.  Self-selected or not, the solid success of innumerable
Hungarian emigrees in the West (in  engineering, science, business, or
finance) shows that there is some constant ingredient in the Hungarian
educational system that has been preserved from the late 1800s to the
present, and one that even the dark years of the forties and fifties
could not quite erase.  And this in spite of the fact that the Hungarian
educational system was always both authoritarian and elitist -- even
in the era where the authoritarianism and elitism were hidden behind a
veneer of egalitarian rhetoric.

Authoritarianism and elitism are both anathema to the prevailing Western
educational dogma as reflected in current American educational practices.
Politically incorrect as they may be, they seem to work, at least in
the sense that the top 10 percent of Hungarian university graduates
will compare favorably with the top 10 percent of university graduates
anywhere else.  What happens to the other 90 percent is another matter...

-----
Gabor Fencsik

MIT is much more than an engineering school.  It has a world class
linguistics department, a Department of Economics with a bunch of
Nobel Prize winners, a world class Department of Political Science,
and the Sloan School of Management which is among the top business
schools anywhere.  They run the Woods Hole Institute of Oceonography,
and have superb Math and Physics departments with leaders in a
number of fields.  All in all, a school with much wider scope than
the BME in Budapest.  Thay also have a budget to match their ambitions,
much of it from the Federal Government and Fortune 500 corporations.
I don't think it is fair (or especially enlightening) to draw
comparisons between MIT and BME.

-----
Gabor Fencsik

Eva Balogh writes (most deleted):

>        As far as ELTE being the best university of Hungary, I stick by my
>opinion. The BME is not really a university as far as I am concerned. It is
>an engineering school. There is a distinction in Hungarian between
>"tudomanyegyetem" and "muegyetem." And among the "tudomanyegyetemek" ELTE
>has the best reputation, and, of course, it is the oldest Hungarian university
.

I agree with most of the deleted stuff but the last paragraph got my blood
pressure high. Based on the described experience at ELTE, I would state that
the BME was not
only a good engineering school but a better university than ELTE. One of my
orals in math was a question out of the blue : Do you know if Frederic the
Great could write?
My stumbling answer was yes, why do you think so was the follow on. When I
stated that to my knowledge Voltaire was correcting his poems, it was the
end of the exam. Whe I asked is that all, I got the answer, well if you know
this much about what is not your subject, I expect you to know math. I
wonder what would have been the answer at the "other place" across the river.

Regards,Jeliko.