I am searching for a 1950's humorous Hungarian children's book about a
monkey and an elephant named Muki and Bubu and their mis-adventures.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Please reply directly to 

Thank you.

Hello!

Could anyone let me know the contact adddresses (and any other 
relevant information) for the following two libraries:
	Music Library, Budapest
	Szabo Ervin Municipal Library, Department of Sociological 
						Documentation, Budapest	

Thanks in advance!
Paddy Collis

SRiholm wrote:
> 
> MEGYEK HAZA KARACSONYRA A YO DISZNOTOROS VACSORARA
> FLORIDABOL;U.S.A.

Be sure to take some apple cider vinegar to protect your 
tummy - Otherwise -Enjoy !

       Csamcsogva         ->  Mark

I frequently brows misc.immigration.usa ; misc.immigration.misc; and other
immigration related newsgroups. You can find hundreds of questions there
regarding to the green card lottery, most of them coming from people who
already have read, but still not sure how to interpret certain details of
the DV-98 Greencard Lottery Information Package provided by the Immigration
& Naturalization Services of the United States FOR $5.10     (NOT FREE)
I answered many of those questions for free, besides I always offered my
services as well. I NEVER SAW YOUR HELP, YOUR ANSWERS ON THOSE NEWSGROUPS.
WHERE ARE YOU WHEN IT'S TIME TO HELP PEOPLE?  Looks like you can criticize
people instead of doing something for them.
I'm not saying that I'm a none profit agency, I'm not about setting up a
glory above my head; I'm not like you; I'm just doing my business. 
What do you mean by scam? What did I claim that is not true? What did I
advertise, that nobody else can benefit but me? I never claimed that
applying for the DV-98 is not free. I never claimed that I could increase
anybody's chances. I only claim, that I can prepare an acceptable
application form, that will not be denied like those last year. (1.9million
because of improper filing) 
I won the green card for several people every year since 1992. They all
appreciate my business.
This is a fact that I can prove.

Kara Larson > wrote in article
>...
> PLEASE, PLEASE don't pay anyone to "process" your visa lottery 
> application for you. You can send them in directly yourself, it couldn't 
> be easier, and its absolutely free!! No one, no matter what they claim, 
> can improve your chances of winning a visa!!
> 
> I work for a non-profit refugee resettlement agency, and every year at 
> lottery time scammers spring up like grass to take advantage of green 
> card hopefuls. DON'T FALL PREY!!
> 
> If you need to know how to submit an application, send me an e-mail and 
> I'll gladly explain.
> 
> Kara Larson
> Assistant Director, Communications
> Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society
> 
> 
> 
> MACKO wrote:
> > 
> > Nobody said that it is not free.
> > I'm offering services, and it is a legitimate business. Since there are
lot
> > of people who is unable to fill out a simple application form, (last
year
> > 1.9 million applications were denied for improper filing), this kind of
> > servic have a great public demand.
> > On the other hand INS charges $5.10 for the instruction only.
> > 
> > George Kovacs > wrote in article
> > >...
> > > In article > "MACKO"
> > > writes:
> > > >From: "MACKO" >
> > > >Subject: Greencard Lottery
> > > >Date: 5 Jan 1997 05:14:50 GMT
> > >
> > > >Application preparation for the Greencard Lottery program
> > > >for the lowest price:$20 per person.
> > > >Visit our page at http://www.netcom.com/~macko/dv98.html
> > > >Zöldkártya jelentkezés 20 dollár New Yorkból.
> > >
> > > Don't send money to anyone. The Greencard Lottery is free. Paying a
> > lawyer or
> > > agent DOES NOT increase your chences.
> > >
>

willy, the canadian pseudo poet and artificial artist wrote:

> >> the fundamental knowledge to know that there are no inuits, only Inuit.
> >Well, wheee, that comes from someone who hasn't even the fundamental
> >knowledge to post in hungarian in the ng soc.culture.magyar.
> >Gabor
> 
> I respond in English to English postings.

You also respond in english to hungarian postings.

> You respond to my English postings in English.

Since that's the only language you know.
When was the last time you posted in hungarian..?

Gabor

car4l

I frequently brows misc.immigration.usa ; misc.immigration.misc; and other
immigration related newsgroups. You can find hundreds of questions there
regarding to the green card lottery, most of them coming from people who
already have read, but still not sure how to interpret certain details of
the DV-98 Greencard Lottery Information Package provided by the Immigration
& Naturalization Services of the United States FOR $5.10     (NOT FREE)
I answered many of those questions for free, besides I always offered my
services as well. I NEVER SAW YOUR HELP, YOUR ANSWERS ON THOSE NEWSGROUPS.
WHERE ARE YOU WHEN IT'S TIME TO HELP PEOPLE?  Looks like you can criticize
people instead of doing something for them.
I'm not saying that I'm a none profit agency, I'm not about setting up a
glory above my head; I'm not like you; I'm just doing my business. 
What do you mean by scam? What did I claim that is not true? What did I
advertise, that nobody else can benefit but me? I never claimed that
applying for the DV-98 is not free. I never claimed that I could increase
anybody's chances. I only claim, that I can prepare an acceptable
application form, that will not be denied like those last year. (1.9million
because of improper filing) 

Kara Larson > wrote in article
>...
> PLEASE, PLEASE don't pay anyone to "process" your visa lottery 
> application for you. You can send them in directly yourself, it couldn't 
> be easier, and its absolutely free!! No one, no matter what they claim, 
> can improve your chances of winning a visa!!
> 
> I work for a non-profit refugee resettlement agency, and every year at 
> lottery time scammers spring up like grass to take advantage of green 
> card hopefuls. DON'T FALL PREY!!
> 
> If you need to know how to submit an application, send me an e-mail and 
> I'll gladly explain.
> 
> Kara Larson
> Assistant Director, Communications
> Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society
> 
> 
> 
> MACKO wrote:
> > 
> > Nobody said that it is not free.
> > I'm offering services, and it is a legitimate business. Since there are
lot
> > of people who is unable to fill out a simple application form, (last
year
> > 1.9 million applications were denied for improper filing), this kind of
> > servic have a great public demand.
> > On the other hand INS charges $5.10 for the instruction only.
> > 
> > George Kovacs > wrote in article
> > >...
> > > In article > "MACKO"
> > > writes:
> > > >From: "MACKO" >
> > > >Subject: Greencard Lottery
> > > >Date: 5 Jan 1997 05:14:50 GMT
> > >
> > > >Application preparation for the Greencard Lottery program
> > > >for the lowest price:$20 per person.
> > > >Visit our page at http://www.netcom.com/~macko/dv98.html
> > > >Zöldkártya jelentkezés 20 dollár New Yorkból.
> > >
> > > Don't send money to anyone. The Greencard Lottery is free. Paying a
> > lawyer or
> > > agent DOES NOT increase your chences.
> > >
>

I'm new. help

 (Daniel von Brighoff) wrote:

>You're missing a crucial element of language reconstruction:  They have to
>be *regular* similarities, the results of *exceptionless* sound changes.
>Anybody can find resemblances between sets of words; finding patterns of  
>correspondences is considerably tougher. ...

AFAIK not all scholars would agree. Certainly Greenberg et al believe
or believed that multilateral comparison of word lists was a valid
technique for detecting relationships between languages. Working out
the precise _lautlehre_ (sound change rules) is principally important
for bilateral comparisons, or so I have read.

> ... Why is Mr. Chong starting with
>modern forms anyway?  If he really wants to prove a relationship, why
>doesn't he compare Sumerian to reconstructed Proto-Finno-Ugric and
>Proto-Altaic?

Perhaps because, as you point out, there are numerous speakers of
Finnish, Turkish, etc. who can point out errors in the data, but there
are relatively few native speakers of Proto-Finno-Ugric and
Proto-Altaic around. Working from reconstructions is second-generation
research -- one step further removed from the raw data, with all the
ambiguities, errors, and occasional prejudices that are accidentally
embedded in the reconstruction. It is akin to what the statisticians
call "data-mining" -- very useful, if you are very careful.

Markku Huttu-Hiltunen ) wrote:
: Markus Nybom BKF wrote:
: > 
: But the
: > Finnish people has it's roots somewhere around the Ural, so theoretically
: > there could have been some communication between eastern languages and
: > Finnish. Still, sounds far fetched...
:  
: Is the information flow so slow to Ĺbo Akademi that you haven't heard
: about "the revolution" concerning the roots of the Finns and Finnish?

	Oh, I don't study history or culture in that sense. So we must         not bla
me the academy for my ignorance. I learned that back in school,
so I'm totaly unaware of this revolution. Sorry.

: For long time it was thought that language and genetics go together so
: that according to the fact that Finnish came from the Ural, the Finns
: came also from the Ural. Couple of years ago it was corrected that the
: Finnish language came from the Ural and the genetic pool of the Finns
: came from the western- or central Europe. The genetics of the Finns is
: 75% western European and 25% Asian. 

: The last time I red about this was today.

	I apologize, I wasn't aware of this. But, on the other hand, if 
Finnish comed from the Ural, it could still bear some resemblance to some
asian languages, theoretically. (It isn't a notion i support, but I added it
just for the sake of the argument.)

Regards,
Markus

Hi
I looking for the recipe for Longos??
thanks John

URL: <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/web>;
Version: 0.22
Soc-culture-magyar-archive-name: web
Posting-Frequency: every ten days
Archive-name: hungarian/web
Last-modified: 1996/10/27

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

     Hungarian electronic resources FAQ

3.      Interactive services
3.1  What's available on the World Wide Web

 The following is the chapter recently removed from the main body of
the hungarian-faq. This is not yet completely re-edited for stand-alone
format, nor completing a collection of all important links has been
attempted. For more comprehensive WWW directories see, for example:
<http://www.hungary.com/hudir/>;, <http://www.hungary.com/hudir/>; or
<http://www.fsz.bme.hu/hungary/homepage.html>;.
 This version 0.2 contains some aditional links not shown in 0.1,=20
see the HTML listing appended near the end of this document!

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: 3. INTERACTIVE SERVICES

 If you are using Hungarian interactive services from abroad (or vice
versa): please note that interactive Internet connections like WWW
may be very slow, even timing out during peak hours - try times of
lower network load when the response time is usually reasonable.

- ------------------------------

Subject: 3.1  What's available on the World Wide Web

 This document you are reading now is hosted at
<http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/hungarian-faq/web>;, and its directory
has a few other documents and several links to other sites of
interest.

 The Hungarian Home Page is at
<http://www.fsz.bme.hu/hungary/homepage.html>; with links to the
registered Hungarian www servers, including

     - the Prime Minister's Office:  <http://www.meh.hu>; (overseas users
    please notice that the use of the <http://www.hungary.com/meh/>;
    mirror is requested to cut down transatlantic traffic!)

     - a weather forecast page (this is updated daily, and includes weather
    forecasts, meteorological maps, and METEOSAT satellite images; this
    page is in Hungarian)

     - home pages of Hungarian cities (currently Budapest, Debrecen,
    Miskolc, Pecs, Szeged), and of educational and other institutions=20

     - a comprehensive list of Hungarian telnet services (e.g. library=20
    databases), gopher and ftp sites (3.2). The content of almost all the=
=20
    Hungarian FTP sites is indexed and can be searched.

 The Hungary Online Directory (HUDIR) is at
<http://www.hungary.com/hudir/>; featuring a hierarchical
database of Hungarian online content worldwide. Currently it has links
in excess of 2500.

 HIX has a WWW server in the USA: the URL is <http://www.hix.com>;.
To check out fresh content, see <http://www.hix.com/friss2/>;, which
gives you a comprehensive table of content for new material arrived in
the last 24 hours (which is typically in the order of 100-150 pages).
Besides back issues of its email journals, and a plethora of other
files in Hungarian and English, it offers an on-line English-Hungarian,
Hungarian-English dictionary (<http://www.hix.com/hix/szotar/>; - its
European mirror is at <http://tpri6l.gsi.de/szotar.html>;), and various
home pages and pointers to other sources. Partial mirrors located in
Hungary are <http://www.eunet.hu/eunet/hix/>; (for the Magyar Narancs
archive), and <http://hal9000.elte.hu/hix/>; (for some pictures, and
searching the Radir database - see below).

 Hungary.Network - The GateWWWay to Hungary at
<http://www.hungary.com/>; has a number of government, commercial and
organizational users listed.

 TourInform is at <http://www.hungary.com/tourinform/>; is the service
of the Hungarian Tourism Service, the official promotion agency of the
Hungarian Tourist Board. They offer practical information, maps,
broshures and even tours on video casette.

 The Open Media Research Institute has a WWW server, available at
<http://www.omri.cz>;.  Available at this Web site are all back issues
of the Daily Digest, tables of contents for Transition, OMRI's
bi-weekly analytical journal, and information about OMRI's activities
and staff.

 The World Wide Web server of Central Europe Today is at the URL
<http://www.eunet.cz>;.

 Find back issues of the Hungary Report on the World Wide Web at=20
<http://www.yak.net/hungary-report/>; or <http://www.isys.hu/hol>;.=20
The Hungary-Online archive is available from=20
<http://www.yak.net/hungary-online/>; or <http://www.isys.hu/hrep>;=20
as well.

 There is a growing Hungarian resource directory at
<http://mineral.umd.edu/hir/>;. [The same server also hosts a
 "Hungarian Electronic Resources FAQ"<http://mineral.umd.edu/faq/>;.]

 There is a"Foreign Languages for Travellers"collection of essential
Hungarian expressions with English, German and French explanation,
complete with sound at
<http://insti.physics.sunysb.edu/~mmartin/languages/hungarian/hungarian.htm=
l>.

 The American Association of Young Hungarians (AAYH) has its homepage
at <http://www.aayh.org/>;.

 A Hungarian church in Chicago has info at
 <http://users.aol.com/MikeC16958/>;.

 The Gyorgy Bessenyei Teachers Training College (Nyiregyhaza) offers=20
some 3000 pages worth of database for Szabolcs-Szatmar-Bereg county=20
(Eastern Hungary) as well as other goodies and general Internet help,
in both Hungarian and English: <http://www.bgytf.hu/>;.

 See also section 2.3 above, which covers
<http://www.siliconvalley.com/>; and refers to other links as well.

 The following is a somewhat random working list, in HTML format,
of webpages of interest recently announced (which I haven't yet had
the time to check out or incorporate with further description):

<A HREF=3D"http://www.fsz.bme.hu/wn/">
 "What's new in Hungary?" =09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://users.deltanet.com/~kingavp/">
 "KINGA'S COOL HUNGARIAN LINKS" =09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://mason.gmu.edu/~achassel/index.html">
 "Historical Text Archive, Hungarian Images and Historical Background"> =09=
</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://members.aol.com/kfa4kuvasz/index.htm">
 "Kuvasz Fanciers of America" =09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.mkogy.hu/">
 "Magyar Orsz=E1ggy=FBl=E9si Hivatal" =09</A> <P>

<A HREF=3D"http://www.nepszabadsag.hu/">
 "Nepszabadsag Online"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.datanet.hu/szignum">
 "Szignum Media Hirlevel"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.enet.hu/clients/bohemelet/">
 "Bohemelet"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.hdsys.hu/">
 "Az Apple Computer Magyarorszagon"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://silicon.terra.vein.hu/sci/intro.html">
 "Utilapu Halozat - SCI Hungary"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.fornax.hu/napi/">
 "Napi Gazdasag On-Line"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.mhirlap.hu/">
 "Magyar Hirlap Ottlap"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.enet.hu/otherside">
 "Other Side Magazin"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.bdtf.hu/konyvtar/sup/sup.html">
 "A Savaria University Press Alapitvany honlapja"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://lingua.arts.klte.hu/summer/summer.htm">
 "Debrecen Summer School"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.eunet.hu/median/ifered.html">
 "Az elso magyar online internet-felmeres eredmenyei"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.enet.hu/jozsefattila">
 "Jozsef Attila"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://WWW.iSYS.hu/remindme">
 "RemindMe"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://WWW.iSYS.hu/nevnap/">
 "Nevnap Emlekezteto"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://WWW.iSYS.hu/nameday/">
 "Nameday Reminder"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.datanet.hu/primpress">
 "Ujsag"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.datanet.hu/artnet/beauty/index">
 "Virtualis Vilagszepe Valasztas 1996"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.fornax.hu/fmon/valuta/index.html">
 "Valuta arfolyamok"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.fornax.hu/fmon/commod/batmenu.html">
 "Budapesti Arutozsde napi statisztika"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.idg.hu/expo">
 "Internet Expo Hungarian Pavilion"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.idg.hu/internetto/friss/netinform/">
 "iNteRNeTTo, Budapest"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.kossuth.enet.hu/">
 "Kossuth Radio"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://year1100.iif.hu/">
 "Millecentenariumi rendezvenyek programfuzete"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.datanet.hu/szfold/szfold.htm">
 "Szabad Fold hetilap"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.sch.bme.hu/~steve/e-mail.html">
 "Kapcsolattartas e-mail utjan az Interneten"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.starkingnet.hu/bcc/internet_piac/">
 "interNET PIAC"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.enet.hu/bpweek">
 "Budapest Week"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.spiderweb.hu/jurix/jurix.html">
 "Jurix jogszabalygyujtemeny a halon"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.iqsoft.hu/pages/h_hmj.html">
 "HMJ - Magyar Gazdasagi Jogszabalyok Haromnyelvu gyujtemenye"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.inf.bme.hu/esatt_indis/docs_hu/rtdhun/hmj_e.html">
 "HMJ - Hungarian Economic Rules of Law"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.tiszanet.hu/mszp/">
 "MSZP Szeged"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.htbt.hu/">
 "H.T.BT. Honlap"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.mav.hu/">
 "A MAV Rt. www szervere"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.mav.hu/">
 "Hungarian State Railways Co."=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.mek.iif.hu/">
 "Magyar Elektronikus Konyvtar (Web felulettel)"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.uni-miskolc.hu:8080/SZOTAR">
 "Angol-magyar, magyar-angol szotar"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.ikm.hu/">
 "Ipari, Kereskedelmi es Idegenforgalmi Miniszterium"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.bankonekt.hu/translat/mfe.htm">
 "Magyarorszagi Forditoirodak Egyesulete"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.bankonekt.hu/translat/mfe.htm">
 "Association of Hungarian Translation Companies"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.InterWare.hu/">
 "Szolgaltatasok az InterWare-nel"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.InterWare.hu/index.us.html">
 "Services at InterWare"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.enet.hu/emiquint/">
 "EMI Quint"=09</A> <P>
<A HREF=3D"http://emc.elte.hu/~ve/index.html">
 "Vilagegyetem - Egyetemistak es foiskolasok ketheti lapja"=09</A> <P>

- ------------------------------

 This work as a collection is copyright (1990-96) Zoli Fekete, and
parts are copyright of their respective authors. Please do not
redistribute substantial portions without contacting the maintainer.
 Since February 14, 1996 this document is authenticated=20
by my secure public-key encrypted electronic signature=20
(see <http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp>; for details),=20
 the public key for which is shown in the WWW link=20
<http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/pgp-key.asc>;=20
and is also attached to the end of the text available via
 'finger '!
 Unauthorized publishing in off-line media - such as printed, CD-ROM or=20
magnetic databases - is explicitly prohibited! =20

URL: <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/web>;
Version: 0.2
Soc-culture-magyar-archive-name: web
Posting-Frequency: every ten days
Archive-name: hungarian/web
Last-modified: 1996/10/26

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
 <'finger '>=20

SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBMnQCpjF5HDDpzOB1AQEsywL/Qrv1JjW/TRnLz5BLtQW9PvFbPeuuj7Bn
EJvdhcFLq19E7a+sZDq4k7iWuFujxNI/HdxQCh5BxOib9T3YHRhrve+H60glh1Yc
8j7RLfErGtq6hKD4dk01/mQxgOXnd65Y
=3DBntL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

I agree with Fred Hamori that the current ethno-linguistic

theories should be reviewed. The following are excerpts from my

research work entitled "The controversy on the origins and early

history of the Hungarians" which I presented at the Canadian

Hungarian Studies Association's 1996 annual conference:



....  The Finno-Ugrian theory's origins can be traced back to a book

published in 1770 by a Hungarian Jesuit, Janos Sajnovics, in which

he claimed that the Hungarian language is identical to that of the

Lapps. This work had no immediate significant impact in Hungary,

but it was followed up by mainly German linguists, among whom

August von Schlozer played the leading role in the development of

the Finno-Ugrian linguistic school. This school had a determining

influence on the development of linguistic research in Hungary

during the second half of the 19th c., where linguists of German

origin also played a leading role. At that time, Hungary was ruled

by the Habsburgs, and German influence was very strong in the

political, economic, social, and cultural fields.



     It is also important to note that the 19th c. saw the rise of

modern nationalism throughout Europe, and that German nationalism

was among the most chauvinistic. It was in this context that the

idea of a superior Aryan race was conceived. Although the term

"Aryan race" is no longer considered politically correct and has

been replaced by the more scientifically-sounding "Indo-European"

term, the fundamental assumption of this ethno-linguistic group's

cultural pre-eminence is still being maintained today. Just as the

proponents of this theory sought to prove their claims of Indo-

European (Aryan) cultural superiority, they also sought to prove

that, conversely, non-Indo-Europeans were culturally inferior. The

Finno-Ugrian theory was therefore promoted in this ideologically

biased context.



     Following the defeat of the Hungarian War of Independence of

1848-49, the repressive Habsburg regime took over the Hungarian

academic institutions and imposed the exclusive research

orientation of the Finno-Ugrian theory about the origin of the

Hungarians. Thus, the Hungarian Academy of Sciences became an

instrument of the Habsburg regime's cultural policy of

Germanization, which sought to weaken the Hungarian national

identity - thereby facilitating foreign domination - through the

distortion and falsification of information relating to the origin,

history, culture, and language of the Hungarians, censoring and

prohibiting any publication or research which did not conform to

the officially imposed Finno-Ugrian theory. This was also the case

under the Hungarian Communist regime which also pursued an anti-

Hungarian policy with the objective of Russification. It was

therefore in the interest of these regimes to "let the conquered

Hungarians believe that they have an ancestry more primitive than

that of the Indo-European peoples. In Habsburg times Hungarian

children were taught that most of their civilization came from the

Germans: today they are taught that their 'barbaric' ancestors were

civilized by the educated Slavs".



     The Finno-Ugrian theory proved to be most suitable for this

purpose. This theory claims that the Hungarians originated from

primitive Siberian hunter-gatherer nomads who wandered Westward and

who acquired a higher culture upon coming into contact with Indo-

Europeans and other peoples. This theory has been increasingly

brought under criticism by dissident and exiled Hungarian

researchers because of its negative portrayal of the Hungarians in

relation to their neighbours, because of the historical and

political circumstances under which this theory has been imposed

and perpetuated, and because this theory fails to take into

consideration a substantial amount of scientific data which

contradicts it. It should also be noted that according to the

scientific review "Nature" (20/02/92), the quality of the research

conducted at the Hungarian Academy of Sciences is rather poor, and

this also seems to apply to the Finno-Ugrian research orientation.

....

     The significant degree of uncertainty and confusion which

still exists within this field of research is due to the fact that

the Finno-Ugrian theory is essentially based on linguistic

speculation which is not supported by any conclusive archeological,

anthropological and historical evidence. In fact, most of the

available evidence seems to contradict the Finno-Ugrian theory, and

furthermore, serious reservations have been raised concerning some

of its linguistic arguments. Several researchers have also pointed

out that the Finno-Ugrian theory contains serious methodological

inconsistencies and errors, that the term "Finno-Ugrian" itself is

arbitrary and unscientific, and that the inclusion of Hungarian in

the Uralic group is artificial and without adequate scientific

basis.



     It is not the apparent linguistic similarities between the

Hungarian and the Uralic languages which are in question, but the

nature and degree of the relationship between the two groups. The

Finno-Ugrian theory's assumption that the Hungarians are directly

descended from the "Finno-Ugrians" and that the Uralic peoples are

the only ethno-linguistic relatives of the Hungarians seems to be

fundamentally flawed: a specific linguistic relationship does not

necessarily correspond to a genetic relationship, nor can it

exclude relationships with other ethnic groups. The Finno-Ugrian

theory rejects the possibility that the Uralic group may somehow be

related to other ethno-linguistic groups such as the Altaic group,

perhaps partly because the first major challenge to the Finno-

Ugrian theory came from advocates of the theory that the Hungarians

were of Turkic origin, based on the numerous and significant

observable linguistic, cultural and anthropological similarities

between the Hungarian and Turkic peoples, as well as on historical

evidence.



     In fact, comparative linguistic analysis has shown that there

are many similarities between Hungarian and several other major

Eurasian linguistic groups, and although the Finno-Ugrian theory

claims that these similarities are the results of borrowings on the

part of the Hungarians, it nevertheless appears that the Finno-

Ugrian theory requires a fundamental revision concerning the

relationship between the Hungarians and the Uralic group, as well

as their relationship to other ethno-linguistic groups. An

alternative explanation for the existing linguistic relationship

between Hungarian and other languages, including the Uralic and

Altaic languages, is provided by the Sumerian ethno-linguistic and

cultural diffusion theory, according to which the Eurasian ethno-

linguistic groups were formed under the dominant cultural and

linguistic influence of the Sumerian-related peoples originating

from the Near East and which have progressively spread throughout

Eurasia during several millenia since the Neolithic period (5000

BC).



     After British, French and German archeologists and linguists

discovered and deciphered the oldest known written records in

Mesopotamia and its neighbouring regions during the first half of

the 19th c., they came to the conclusion that the language of those

ancient inscriptions was neither Indo-European nor Semitic, but an

agglutinative language which demonstrated significant similarities

with the group of agglutinative languages known at the time as the

Turanian ethno-linguistic group which included Hungarian, Turkic,

Mongolian and Finnic (later referred to as the Ural-Altaic group).

....

     The principal results of the research conducted so far on the

Sumerian-Hungarian relationship have indicated that these languages

have over a thousand common word roots and a very similar

grammatical structure. In his Sumerian Etymological Dictionary and

Comparative Grammar, K lm n Gosztony, professor of Sumerian

philology at the Sorbonne, demonstrated that the grammatical

structure of the Hungarian language is the closest to that of the

Sumerian language: out of the 53 characteristics of Sumerian

grammar, there are 51 matching characteristics in the Hungarian

language, 29 in the Turkic languages, 24 in the Caucasian

languages, 21 in the Uralic languages, 5 in the Semitic languages,

and 4 in the Indo-European languages.



     The linguistic similarities between Sumerian and Hungarian as

well as other languages are corroborated by the archeological and

anthropological data discovered so far. These archeological finds

indicate that the Sumerians were the first settlers of Southern

Mesopotamia (5000 BC), where they had come from the mountainous

regions to the North and East with their knowledge of agriculture

and metallurgy, and where they built the first cities. Their use of

irrigation allowed an unprecedented population increase, resulting

in successive migratory waves which can be traced archeologically

and anthropologically throughout Eurasia and North Africa. Thus,

from the evidence left by this process of colonization, it appears

that the Sumerian city-states were able to exert a preponderant

economic, cultural, linguistic and ethnic influence during several

thousand years not only in Mesopotamia and the rest of the Near

East, but also beyond, in the Mediterranean Basin, in the Danubian

Basin, in the regions North of the Caucasus and of the Black Sea,

in the Caspian-Aral, Volga-Ural, and Altai regions, as well as in

Iran and India. It seems therefore that the Sumerians and their

civilization had a determining influence not only on later Near-

Eastern civilizations, but also on the Mediterranean, Indian, and

even Chinese civilizations, as well as on the formation of the

various Eurasian ethno-linguistic groups.



     One of the most comprehensive studies examining this complex

question is Laszlo Gotz's 5-volume 1100-page research work entitled

"Keleten Kel a Nap" (The Sun rises in the East), for which the

author consulted over 500 bibliographical sources from among the

most authoritative experts in the fields of ancient history,

archeology, and linguistics. In his wide-ranging study, Laszlo Gotz

examined the development of the Sumerian civilization, the

determining cultural and ethno-linguistic influence of the Near-

Eastern Neolithic, Copper and Bronze Age civilizations upon the

cultural development of Western Eurasia, and the linguistic

parallels between the Indo-European, Semitic and Sumerian languages

indicating that the Sumerian language had a considerable impact on

the development of the Indo-European and Semitic languages which

have numerous words of Sumerian origin. Laszlo Gotz also examined

the fundamental methodological shortcomings of Indo-European and

Finno-Ugrian ethno-linguistic research. His conclusion is that most

Eurasian ethno-linguistic groups are related to one another in

varying degrees, and that these groups, such as the Indo-European,

Uralic and Altaic groups, were formed in a complex process of

multiple ethno-linguistic hybridization in which Sumerian-related

peoples played a fundamental role.



....   The archeological and anthropological finds of the Carpathian

Basin indicate that the indigenous population (the Neolithic,

Copper and Bronze Age settlers) was related to, and at least in

part originated from, the ancient Near-Eastern civilizations.



....

     It appears therefore that a fundamental revision of early

Hungarian history is necessary in order to arrive at a more

accurate picture, and much research work remains to be done in this

field. Based on the available information, it seems most probable

that the Hungarians are a synthesis of the peoples which have

settled in the Carpathian Basin since the Neolithic period up to

the Middle Ages: the Sumerian-related peoples of Near-Eastern

origin (Neolithic, Copper and Bronze Ages), followed by the

Scythians (6th c. BC), the Huns (5th c. AD), the Avars (6th c.),

the Magyars (9th c.), the Petchenegs (11th c.), and the Cumans

(13th c.). This Hungarian synthesis is characterized by a

remarkable ethno-linguistic homogeneity and has remained highly

differentiated from the considerably more numerous surrounding

Indo-European peoples. The conclusion which can be drawn from this

is that the Hungarians were able to preserve their ethno-linguistic

identity and to maintain a demographic majority or critical mass

within the Carpathian Basin as a result of the continuous inflow of

ethno-linguistically related peoples. These peoples were designated

in the 19th c. as Turanians, and the Sumerians, Scythians, Huns,

Avars and Magyars were all considered to belong to this ethno-

linguistic group. 



     Presently there are still many misconceptions concerning the

Turanian peoples: it is still widely believed, erroneously, that

the Scythians were an Indo-European people, that the Huns and Avars

were Turkic-speaking peoples of Mongolian race or origin, and that

the Magyars were a mixture of Finnic and Turkic elements. These

misconceptions originate from an inaccurate historical perspective

which failed to recognize the existence of a separate Turanian

entity amidst the multi-ethnic conglomerates of the Scythians,

Huns, Avars, and Magyars, whose empires consisted of tribal

federations which included various other ethnic groups: Indo-

Europeans, as well as Uralic and Altaic peoples besides the

dominant Turanian elements. It now seems that this Turanian ethno-

linguistic group to which the Hungarians belong was a distinct

group from which the Uralic and Altaic ethno-linguistic groups

later evolved through a process of ethno-linguistic diffusion and

hybridization. This explanation of the existing ethno-linguistic

affinities between the Hungarians and the Uralic and Altaic groups

would be more in line with the latest findings on this subject. In

light of these findings, it would seem appropriate to re-examine

this question objectively, avoiding the officially imposed

ideological biases which have clouded the issue since the middle of

the 19th c. and still continue to do so today.

Gabor, az a pasas olyan hulye, hogy tenyleg kar vele vitatkozni, mert 
mindenbe belekot es mindent kiforgat.  Ahogy fiatal koromban mondtuk, nem 
banom az "epito kritikat", de aki csak obegetja a magaet, azzal kar 
foglalkozni.  Mindenesetre, en nagyon ertekelem a treaty informaciot.  
Udv. Agnes

Michel Beaubien & Associates
      http://www.generation.net/~dannyh/mba.htm
      
      We can advise you if you intend to visit our country, to study &
work
       in  Canada or to become a Canadian Resident.     
  
     Visit our site & find out if you are eligible using our free on line
questionnaire.

     In colaboration with a US attorney in Washington DC, we also work
   cases for American immigration.

In article >, 
 says...
>
>Azt nem tepsibe sütik és te is tudsz csinalni! Ha tudsz kenyeret sütni.
>
Mint egy par hettel ezelott kifejtettem, nem kell tudni kenyeret sutni.  
Vegyel egy adag friss pizza tesztat, nyujtsd ki, szaggasad ki, es bo 
olajban sussed ki.  Jo etvagyat!

Agnes
>SRiholm > skrev i inlägg
>...
>> EN IS SZERETEM A LANGOST KULD NEKEM  WEGY TEPSIVEL........
>>

In article >,
Bill Vaughan > wrote:
 (Daniel von Brighoff) wrote:
>
>>You're missing a crucial element of language reconstruction:  They have to
>>be *regular* similarities, the results of *exceptionless* sound changes.
>>Anybody can find resemblances between sets of words; finding patterns of  
>>correspondences is considerably tougher. ...
>
>AFAIK not all scholars would agree. Certainly Greenberg et al believe
>or believed that multilateral comparison of word lists was a valid
>technique for detecting relationships between languages. Working out
>the precise _lautlehre_ (sound change rules) is principally important
>for bilateral comparisons, or so I have read.

	Don't even get me started on Greenberg, et al.  I don't see how
throwing out two centuries of hard-won experience in comparative
reconstruction and replacing it with "eye comparisons" (what *are* his
systematic rules for determining whether two or more words are cognate in
a mass-comparison list?) advances our knowledge of language origins one
bit.

>> ... Why is Mr. Chong starting with
>>modern forms anyway?  If he really wants to prove a relationship, why
>>doesn't he compare Sumerian to reconstructed Proto-Finno-Ugric and
>>Proto-Altaic?
>
>Perhaps because, as you point out, there are numerous speakers of
>Finnish, Turkish, etc. who can point out errors in the data, but there
>are relatively few native speakers of Proto-Finno-Ugric and
>Proto-Altaic around. Working from reconstructions is second-generation
>research -- one step further removed from the raw data, with all the
>ambiguities, errors, and occasional prejudices that are accidentally
>embedded in the reconstruction. It is akin to what the statisticians
>call "data-mining" -- very useful, if you are very careful.

	Yes, but working in ignorance of data that, in some cases,
represent a lifetime of painstaking reconstruction just strikes me as
foolhardy.  By all means, double check the data sets to see if your
predecessors knew what they were talking about, by why rediscover Grimm's
Law?  Who (besides Greenberg et ilk) would think of trying to prove a
relationship between the modern European languages and, say, those of the
Ancient Middle East without any reference to Proto-Indo-European as
presented by Pokorny et al.?

-- 
	 Daniel "Da" von Brighoff    /\          Dilettanten
	)  /__\         erhebt Euch
				   /____\      gegen die Kunst!

In article >,
    (Daniel von Brighoff) wrote:
>In article >,
>Paul Kekai Manansala > wrote:
>>In article >,
>>    (Daniel von Brighoff) wrote:
>>>
>>>You're missing a crucial element of language reconstruction:  They have to
>>>be *regular* similarities, the results of *exceptionless* sound changes.
>>
>>Most languages I have studied do not have "exceptionless" sound changes.
>>There are always at least a few exceptions to every sound change that have
>>to be subjectively explained away.
>
>There are always exceptions, but the point of having "exceptionless sound
>changes" as the goal is that these should be very, very few in number.
>Generally, it can be shown that most of the so-called "exceptions" are
>actually borrowings from a closely-related dialect where different
>"exceptionless" changes apply.  

In some language groups that may be true, especially when there are historical
sources for these languages.  

For instance, all the NHD words I can
>think off which appear to present "exceptions" to the "2. Lautver-
>schiebung" [the shift of voicless obstruents to voiceless affricates and
>fricatives, e.g. p -> pf/f(f)] are actually borrowings from other Germanic
>dialects, generally Low Saxon.  (E.g. Tiden "tides" (= Zeiten), Lippe
>"lip" (= *Luepfe), Klippe "cliff" (= Kliff), etc.).  High German cognates
>of these words, demonstrating all the applicable sound changes, do exist,
>but are obsolete or dialectal in regard to the NHD standard.
>
>Part of the problem in this respect comes from comparing standardised
>languages, which are always to some degree the result of a compromise
>between several dialects.  Nevertheless, no language variety is "pure" in
>this respect, and there are always cases of borrowing and other forms of
>linguistic influence.  This is one of the things that makes comparative
>reconstruction challenging and not something anyone can do with couple
>pocket dictionaries and a lot of time their hands.
>

That's true, but not all the sources used by those in this thread were 
non-professional. In Hungary, there has been a *lot* of scholarly work
comparing these language groups.  Generally, this has been rejected
by the rest of the European community, and I can't help agreeing with
Fred that politics plays a role.  I remember reading the book _The
Sumerian Problem_ and thinking how strong the political overtones were
in that argument.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala