I have been following the thread about learning languages and the relative diff
iculty of English and Hungarian with keen interest. I left Hungary when I was f
ive years old and had no Hungarian schooling in a formal sense. I learnt to spe
ak Hungarian from my parents and later continued to practice the language in th
e scout troop to which I belonged. I started school in Germany in the local tow
n school not knowing a word German. By the end of first class primary I was sec
ond in my class much to the annoyance of the German boys. I came to Australia i
n 1949 when I was ten years old. I spent a year in boarding school where I was 
the only migrant boarder. By the end of that year I topped my class in English 
in first year high school. After 48 years my accent is still remarked on, as it
 was in Germany when I spoke German, yet I have no problems with English spelli
ng though even the locals admit that it lacks all logic, hence the repeated fut
ile efforts to reform it and the simplifications which have crept in from the U
SA.
I met a priest here who spoke Hungarian so well that he was saying mass and pre
aching in Hungarian with only the slightest trace of an accent. He started to l
earn Hungarian when he was 16 year old.
Hungarian is very rigorous in its grammar but quite easy to write since it is e
ssentially phonetic. It is interesting that apparently Hungarians learn Japanes
e quite readily because there are quite close similarities in the grammar. I ha
d a similar experience with a Finnish colleague. When she spoke Finnish on the 
phone the music of the language was easily taken for Hungarian yet there are on
ly about a hundred or so words which linguists claim have common roots with Hun
garian.
When my father grew up in southern Hungary multilingualism was taken as a matte
r of course. He spoke Hungarian and German equally well, learnt Romanian and Se
rbian from his classmates, French in secondary school, Italian at Military Coll
ege and English when he was nearing 50 in Germany after WW II from the American
s. He cold hold a conversation in any of these languages right up to when he wa
s in his seventies. 

Regards
Dénes 



----------
From:  Aniko Dunford[SMTP:]
Sent:  Tuesday, 22 April 1997 12:41
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: Learning languages....

Szia Gabor!
Gabor Farkas - At 10:01 PM 21/04/97 -0400, you wrote:
Nice to see you name again .... been awhile.>
>Did you ever try to learn Chinese? Now that must be hard...
>Gabor D. Farkas
I am sure that the linguists on the group can best address the
technicalities of the oriental languages.  But from personal experience
what I find most difficult if not impossible to grasp is the control that
one is required to utilize over one's tone of voice - or if you prefer
voice inflections.  (Of course, being very Hungarian in temperament, you
can imagine what I am talking about here:-)  I've found myself quite
confused many a times, when identical phrases are utilized in each (not
meaning both) Mandarin Chinese and Japanese, the only difference being the
tone of voice used - which of course changes the context of the meaning
drastically.  It cannot be impossible though to learn.  Several of our
acquaintances have succeeded - after a long immersion periods.
Aniko

On Apr 21, 10:14pm, Joe Szalai wrote:
> Subject: Re: Learning languages....
> At 08:22 PM 4/21/97 -0400, Eva Balogh wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >        I know that it will sound like sacrilege to some but really: doesn't
> >the joining of English Canada and the United States sound almost a natural
> >development? Don't these two countries actually form an economic, political,
> >and linguistic unit? After all, one must admit that Canada is an artificial
> >construct. ESB
>
> Are you looking for a fight, Eva?  Manifest Destiny is dead.  It rightfully
> belonged to the 19th-century.  We're about to go into the 21st.
>
> Joe Szalai
>-- End of excerpt from Joe Szalai

I don't think Eva Balogh is speaking of Manifest Destiny in this instant. What
she is pointing out is that Canada and the U.S. have far more in common than
most people will admit. This is the 21st century as you like to point out, Joe,
and it's economy that is the real issue here. It makes sense, even more so to
Canada to be a part of a vital strong continental and global economy. What
Canda has now is a central government which reminds us in the U.S. of our early
Articles of Confederation with all their inherint weaknesses; provices
bickering with provinces. Seems to me a melting pot may have some strong
points.  :) As for Quebec, given her penchant for cultural isolation, she will
hang herself economically .

Just my own two cents on the topic.

Bob Hosh

Isn't all territory and ethnic construction just a artificial construct?
As they gain strength, I would not consider them so malleable. I think
that border is fixed and won't change to soon. Quebec is another story.


Darren Purcell
Program for Instructional Excellence
Department of Geography
Florida State University



On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, E.S. Balogh wrote:

> Miklos Hoffman:
>
> >> Agnes
> >Aniko & Agnes, I recall - back in those days - I saw that picture
> >of the Earth taken from the moon. And I said and FELT, yes, there I am
> >at home.
> >Ain4t that great?
>
>         I know that it will sound like sacrilege to some but really: doesn't
> the joining of English Canada and the United States sound almost a natural
> development? Don't these two countries actually form an economic, political,
> and linguistic unit? After all, one must admit that Canada is an artificial
> construct. ESB
>
>
>

At 09:49 PM 4/21/97 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:
>At 08:22 PM 4/21/97 -0400, Eva Balogh wrote:
>
>>At 12:06 PM 4/21/97 -0400, Andy Kozma wrote:
>>
>>>Maybe if I would live in the States I would swear that is the Best Country.
>>>Maybe?
>>>Andy.
>>
>>        Surely, you would. ESB
>
>Hmmm.  Eva Balogh sounds like an American nationalist.  Interesting, indeed.
>
        No, it says something about Andy Kozma. ESB

At 10:05 PM 4/21/97 -0400, Janos Zsargo wrote:

<snip>
>Maybe my English again. I meant that nobody can say what the Hungarians
>want or what is welcomed in Hungary. We can only say what we think they
>want or should do.
>'Hogy a tovabbi felreerteseket elkeruljuk: Magyaran, senkinek sincs
>joga azt mondani, hogy a 'Magyarok' ezt vagy azt akarnak, szeretnek ,
>utalnak, stb. Csak annit mondhatunk, szerintem ezt vagy azt akarnak....'
>In other word, Joe, I did not like the way how you expressed yourself.

Are you giving me a lesson in Hungarian or in political rhetoric?  Of
course, we can only speak for ourselves, 'szerintem'.  Anyone who pretends
otherwise is a fool.  However, and especially, if one wants to add some
force or flourish to one's comments, those qualifiers are dropped.
Besides, I was responding to Kristof > who announced that
he was a missionary for the Utolso Napok Szentjei Jezus Krisztus Eghyhaza
(Mormon) in Hungary.  He would have no difficulty saying that he was doing
God's work, or fulfilling God's wishes, as if he, or his missionary
cohorts, have any idea about what God wants.  They don't, but they don't
have any problem pretending that they do.  So, I respond in kind, and tell
him that Hungarians don't want them, as if I had any idea what Hungarians
want.  Needless to say, I don't.  And they don't know what God wants.

Joe Szalai

At 10:05 PM 4/21/97 -0400, Gabor Farkas wrote:
>At 08:30 PM 4/20/97 -0400, Bandi Rozsa wrote:
>
>
>>... you have to have a fine ear for languages to hear the sounds and a
>>fine brain to be able to replicate them.
>
>I had a strange experience in Finland. If you hear people talking, without
>listening, it sounds exactly like Hungarian (accents, vowels, etc.). Once
>you start listening, you don't understand one word.

        Most  likely because in both languages the main stress always falls
on the first syllable. ESB

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:      normal

Background:
  Hungary's position in the Danube lawsuit at the International Court
of Justice in The Hague is very promising. However, even if the court
rules in favour for the environment it is possible that the Slovak
government does not accept the sentence.
  It is important that influential politicians of USA support our
position, since in this case Slovakia probably does not dare to reject
the decision of the court.

What to do:
  Please help to persuade President Clinton to support the sentence of
the Internatinal Court of Justice by threatening with sanctions in
case of non-compliance. Feel free to use the attached form letter.
   IT IS IMPORTANT THAT THE PRESIDENT FINDS THOUSANDS OF LETTERS IN
HER MAILBOX. PLEASE ACT!! Please SEND EVEN SNAIL MAILS. These are more
effective.

e-mail address of President Clinton:


*************************************************************
<date>

The Honorable Bill Clinton
President of the United States
The White House
Washington, D.C. 20001
(e-mail: )

RE:  First Environmental Lawsuit (Danube) in The Hague

Dear Mr. President,

On the 21st of August, 1993, Vice President Gore wrote to professor
Bela Liptak about his concern for the future of the Danube ecosystem
at Szigetkoz. Today, we are approaching an important precedent: This
year the International Court of Justice (ICJ) in The Hague will rule
on the first international environmental lawsuit.

By the end of the year, the ICJ will decide on this case involving the
Danube and the destruction of its ancient wetland region: the
Szigetkoz. This name, loosely translated, means: "The region of a
thousand islands," yet today there are no islands left there because
the water is gone. Still, the implications of this case go beyond the
future of just one river or just the 400 endangered species of the
only inland-sea delta ecosystem of Europe.

This lawsuit will set a precedent for the whole planet and will
answer a much more basic question:  Do national governments have the
right to destroy the natural treasures of this planet, or does
humankind as a whole have the right to protect them?

Dear Mr. President, in 1995 nine international NGOs have submitted a
memorial to the ICJ, which the Court accepted. A Compromise Plan was
also submitted to the Court, which would guarantee the restoration of
the ancient Szigetkoz wetlands together with fulfilling the
water-supply, shipping, and energy needs of the region. For details
information is available at the Web site:
http://www.goodpoint.com/duna.htm or from prof. Liptak.

Dear Mr. Clinton. There is little question that in October the ICJ
will order Slovakia to return the Danube into its natural riverbed and
will also order the restoration of the Szigetkoz wetlands. But the ICJ
has no powers to enforce its rulings. It will, therefore, be up to the
international community to force the parties to the lawsuit to obey
the ruling. Since this is the first international environmental
lawsuit before the ICJ, the outcome will establish an important
precedent. All governments must understand that there is a price to be
paid for being admitted into the European Community or into NATO. That
price must include respect for international law. A statement by you
would guarantee that the parties understand this. Please make that
statement.

Respectfully yours,

<Your name, address, title>

At 08:22 PM 4/21/97 -0400, you wrote:
>At 12:06 PM 4/21/97 -0400, Andy Kozma wrote:
>
>>>>Aniko:there are a couple of statements I object to.
>>>>1.Canada has a ton of problems,not unlike the States.Please clarifie what
>>>>you ment by that?
>>Here is another question Aniko:In your definition is the US a more perfect
>>Country?
>
>        But that's not what Aniko said. Aniko says that both countries have
>problems.
>
>        ESB
>
>OK.Eva,but I rather have our problems,and not multiply them with the US-s.
Andy.
>P.S.By the way I'll be visiting my Son in Pensacola.Will return end of April.
Andy Kozma

Toronto.

At 09:41 AM 4/22/97 -0400, you wrote:
>At 09:49 PM 4/21/97 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:
>>At 08:22 PM 4/21/97 -0400, Eva Balogh wrote:
>>
>>>At 12:06 PM 4/21/97 -0400, Andy Kozma wrote:
>>>
>>>>Maybe if I would live in the States I would swear that is the Best Country.
>>>>Maybe?
>>>>Andy.
>>>
>>>        Surely, you would. ESB
>>
>>Hmmm.  Eva Balogh sounds like an American nationalist.  Interesting, indeed.
>>
>        No, it says something about Andy Kozma. ESB
>
>Eva:don't try to blame me.I am not a nationalist,but I dislike when some
very educated person,brings up hwo tremendous the country she lives in is.
If I would have emigrated to the States,I had the opportunity,and I wouldn't
know anything about Canada,just the remarks,some former Canadian implys,I
might join the chorus and be a Yankee.
Right now I just feel,that I wouldn't bite the hand wich fed me,gave me
ahelter,education,freedom.And than try to show how awful that country is.
Andy.
>
Andy Kozma

Toronto.

At 08:22 PM 4/21/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Miklos Hoffman:
>
>>> Agnes
>>Aniko & Agnes, I recall - back in those days - I saw that picture
>>of the Earth taken from the moon. And I said and FELT, yes, there I am
>>at home.
>>Ain4t that great?
>
>        I know that it will sound like sacrilege to some but really: doesn't
>the joining of English Canada and the United States sound almost a natural
>development? Don't these two countries actually form an economic, political,
>and linguistic unit? After all, one must admit that Canada is an artificial
>construct. ESB
>
>Well Eva,this the American way to look at it.Apperently we are supposed to
have our own culture,and past,and present.
If this would be so,why don't the American Congress invite Canada to join
the US?
I wonder what would be our awnser.May I aske what is so artificial about Canada
?
Was it also artificial when you applied to emigrate there?
Sorry,but now that you live in the States,and used your experience,and
studies in Canada,now you wish to have one US,including Canada.
Maybe after Quebec separat,but I doubt both.
Andy.
>
>
Andy Kozma

Toronto.

aheringer wrote:
>
> In article >, 
> says...
> >
> >aheringer wrote:
> >>
> >> >I heard that the gift of languages is closely related to the gift of
> >> >music. In my small circle of friends this generalization seems to
> >> >have genuine foundation!
> >> >
> >> >I would like to meet some of those people whom others find
> >> >speaking the given non-mother tongue (English or Hungarian)
> >> >so natively that a native couldn't recognize them as foreigners!
> >> >I bet they've learned that language before that magic age of
> >> >12-15!
> >> >
> >> >Another thing I've found, the more languages one learns, the
> >> >easier it gets to learn yet another (common rootwords, etc.),
> >> >however the purity of pronanciation is inversly related to the
> >> >number of languages spoken.
> >> >
> >> >An experience based  personal opinion for what it's worth!
> >> >
> >> I fully agree.  Agnes
> >Agnes, who wrote the text you agree with`I wanted to answer, but don4t
> >find the original message. Thanks. Miklos
>
> I am sorry, I don't remember.  Maybe Bandi Rozsa?  I am not sure.  But
> you can still reply, the public will read it!
>
> Agnes
Thanks. Except for the statement that ONLY young age makes
perfect command possible ( this is not exactly what you wrote,
this is what I percieved ) I agree with you. Possibly I would
have replied to the original message...
Miklos

Aniko Dunford wrote:
>
> Miklos:  At 08:19 PM 21/04/97 GMT, you wrote:
> >In article >, 
> >says...
> >>Aniko & Agnes, I recall - back in those days - I saw that picture
> >>of the Earth taken from the moon. And I said and FELT, yes, there I am
> >>at home.
> >>Ain4t that great?
> Cute Miklos!  You're getting better, every day!:-)
> Aniko
Vigyazz! fejembe szall! Hallo Aniko!
You are still around? I thought you were already suffering in the
Hungarian Arctic. The fruit crop is probably gone..."Draga lesz
a baracklekvar" the Hungarian press wrote this morning.
Jo utat, kezcsokom.
Miklos

Janos Zsargo wrote:
>
> J.Szalai wrote:
>
> >>J.Szalai wrote:
> >>
> >>>The growth of western (read - American) churches and fast-food joints in
> >>>Hungary are as welcome as cold sores before an important date.
> >>
> >>Well, I guess you are neither Hungary nor 'the Hungarians' so you are not
> >>eligible to say what is welcomed in Hungary.
> >
> >What on earth do you mean by this, Janos?  I have as much right as you to
> >say what is, and what is not, welcomed in Hungary.
>
> Maybe my English again. I meant that nobody can say what the Hungarians
> want or what is welcomed in Hungary. We can only say what we think they
> want or should do.
> 'Hogy a tovabbi felreerteseket elkeruljuk: Magyaran, senkinek sincs
> joga azt mondani, hogy a 'Magyarok' ezt vagy azt akarnak, szeretnek ,
> utalnak, stb. Csak annit mondhatunk, szerintem ezt vagy azt akarnak....'
> In other word, Joe, I did not like the way how you expressed yourself.
>
> >say what is, and what is not, welcomed in Hungary.  You're just going on
> >another one of your right-wing, nationalist crusades to decide who is, and
> >who isn't a "real" Hungarian, aren't you?  Don't you know that that's a
> >losers game.
>
> I guess this is one of your pieces what we can abbreviate as BS, again.
>
> J.Zs
Hogy mondta nagyapam negy lanyanak? "Szeressetek egymast gyerekek,
mert titeket a kutya se szeret..."
M.

Gabor Fencsik wrote:
> The hardest thing about English is
> the infinite subtlety of English idioms.

Yes. And try the simlicity of British English in this respect
for a change!-)

> "Miklos K. Hoffmann" > pronounces the
> following magic spell to illustrate the diabolical complexity of
> Hungarian grammar:
>
> > haz, hazainkat, hazainkon, hazainkrol, hazainkbol, hazainkba,
> > hazainktol, hazainkig,....
>
> I fail to see the point.

I believe you this. ;-)

> Looks like a completely regular sequence
> to me.  Now if you would care to explain the difference between
> imparfait subjonctive and ordinary imparfait,

You don4t have to explain that! It4s evident, isn4t it?

> or why German has
> eight separate ways of forming the plural of a noun
, and how to
> figure out when each of these is appropriate...
>
Believe me, I never think a nanosecond about the problem and use
the plurals ( almost?:-) ) always correctly. Thus, it must be rather
trivial. ;-)

Gee, not prepared, refuse to understand and to learn?! ;-)
Ask all those spouses, children etc of Hungarian emigrants who
try to pick up the language e.g. on the Summer University in
Debrecen. I stopped after one and a half rows of rather simple
examples - somebody wrote there were billions of endings...

But I conceed that it was easy and trivial for you to learn
Hungarian as mother tongue - due to a) genius and b) age. ;-)

Miklos K. Hoffmann >

E.S. Balogh wrote:
>
> Miklos Hoffman:
>
> >> Agnes
> >Aniko & Agnes, I recall - back in those days - I saw that picture
> >of the Earth taken from the moon. And I said and FELT, yes, there I am
> >at home.
> >Ain4t that great?
>
>         I know that it will sound like sacrilege to some but really: doesn't
> the joining of English Canada and the United States sound almost a natural
> development? Don't these two countries actually form an economic, political,
> and linguistic unit? After all, one must admit that Canada is an artificial
> construct. ESB

;-) would have been more convincing to me...Well,...well...considering
the two thousand years of American history...;-) or are you speaking as
a Hungarian? ( than it4s only 1100 years! ;-) )
M.

E.S. Balogh wrote:
>
> Miklos Hoffman:
>
> >> Agnes
> >Aniko & Agnes, I recall - back in those days - I saw that picture
> >of the Earth taken from the moon. And I said and FELT, yes, there I am
> >at home.
> >Ain4t that great?
>
>         I know that it will sound like sacrilege to some but really: doesn't
> the joining of English Canada and the United States sound almost a natural
> development? Don't these two countries actually form an economic, political,
> and linguistic unit? After all, one must admit that Canada is an artificial
> construct. ESB
Free after Carnegie : How to make ( Canadian ) friend. :-))))
Miklos

Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> At 08:22 PM 4/21/97 -0400, Eva Balogh wrote:
>
> >At 12:06 PM 4/21/97 -0400, Andy Kozma wrote:
> >
> >>Maybe if I would live in the States I would swear that is the Best Country.
> >>Maybe?
> >>Andy.
> >
> >        Surely, you would. ESB
>
> Hmmm.  Eva Balogh sounds like an American nationalist.  Interesting, indeed.
>
> Joe Szalai
>
> I cannot identify with that kind of nationalism as I can't with any kind of
> nationalism.
>        -- Eva Balogh (at 08:18 PM 4/18/97 -0400)
Joe, I do share your firm opinion that it4s not fine, gentlemanlike,
reminding a lady what she said earlier.
;-)Miklos
earlier.

Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> At 03:34 PM 4/21/97 +0200, Miklos Hoffmann wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >Jusz want to remind you : you forgot : IMHO. ( not that I wouldn4t
> >share this opinion of yours, but it4s just my humble opinion, too. )
> >( Especially with fast food....it4s no longer Budapest. It4s Bodepest. )
> >M
>
> Miklos,
>
> Nem feleytettem a "IMHO"-t,  mert nem vagyok nagyon ala'zatos.  Nem az a
> terme'szetem.  E's nem esek a te'rdemre ha valaki egy Mormon
> missziona'rius.
>
> Joe Szalai
Ennek biztosan rossz vege lesz! ;-) Egyebkent a modern nyelven
az alazatot realizmusnak nevezik...Theat, IYHO. :-)
Miklos
Miklos

I would like to know if anybody on the list could help me with some
data:
Andre Kertesz, the photographer.  The name of his father appears in
two different spellings:  Lipot and Lipolt.  I assume Lipot is the
correct form (for Leopold).
Borsszem Janko.  Name of a satirical journal or magazine.  How would
you translate this into English.  I suggested Jack Pea to the
researcher but she was not convinced.  Also, does anybody know the
years the magazine was published?
Thank you.
Elizabeth

At 09:41 AM 4/22/97 -0400, Eva Balogh wrote:

>At 09:49 PM 4/21/97 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:

<snip>
>>Hmmm.  Eva Balogh sounds like an American nationalist.  Interesting, indeed.
>>
>        No, it says something about Andy Kozma. ESB

Well, you may be right.  Besides, there's no need to be a nationalist when
you already live in the best country in the world, eh?

Joe Szalai

Bob Hosh wrote:
>
> > <snip>
>

 What
> she is pointing out is that Canada and the U.S. have far more in common than
> most people will admit. This is the 21st century as you like to point out,
 Joe,
> and it's economy that is the real issue here. It makes sense, even more so to
> Canada to be a part of a vital strong continental and global economy.

Did you ever think of the US becoming part of a vital...?
I am just asking! ;-) Don4t let me put on a wanted list!

> Seems to me a melting pot may have some strong
> points.

The ever increasing enthropy...

As for Quebec, given her penchant for cultural isolation, she will
> hang herself economically .

Quebec libre?! Au grand jamais!!!

> Just my own two cents on the topic.
>
Very, very cautious :-)
Miklos Hoffmann

Darren Purcell wrote:
>
> Isn't all territory and ethnic construction just a artificial construct?
> As they gain strength, I would not consider them so malleable. I think
> that border is fixed and won't change to soon. Quebec is another story.
>
> Darren Purcell
> Program for Instructional Excellence
> Department of Geography
> Florida State University
>
But wouldn4t that let geography boom?!
Miklos Hoffmann

In article >,
 (MDtoCEO) writes:

>Hungarian is lyric, which English is not.

I suppose Shakespeare, among others, must have been some kind of
linguistic freak of nature.

> Hungarian is lawful, which
>English is not.

You obviously missed the character-building experience common to millions
of other native English speakers of having some anal-retentive old bat
spend a year of your life sometime in your adolescence trying to drill
English grammar (i.e., "da rules") into your impermeable noggin.

>Hungarian has at least six billion suffixes, which
>English has not.

Predictable descent into hyperbole.

> I speak English, but I love Hungarian.

The pertinent question is whether it loves you in return.
Sam Stowe


"You see, one of my favorite
in-class demonstrations every
year was to dip live rabbits in
liquid nitrogen, then give them a
good whack on the countertop..."
-- Milkman Dan, sadistic former
high school science teacher

Elizabeth Gulacsy wrote:
>
> I would like to know if anybody on the list could help me with some
> data:
> Andre Kertesz, the photographer.  The name of his father appears in
> two different spellings:  Lipot and Lipolt.  I assume Lipot is the
> correct form (for Leopold).
> Borsszem Janko.  Name of a satirical journal or magazine.  How would
> you translate this into English.  I suggested Jack Pea to the
> researcher but she was not convinced.  Also, does anybody know the
> years the magazine was published?
> Thank you.
> Elizabeth
>
> 
Johnny Pepper?

At 08:14 PM 4/22/97 +0200, Miklos Hoffmann wrote:

<snip>
>Joe, I do share your firm opinion that it4s not fine, gentlemanlike,
>reminding a lady what she said earlier.
>;-)Miklos

I've never treated Eva Balogh as a 'lady'.  I think she'd vouch for that.
Her gender is revelant only if she is being discriminated against because
of it.  I try and not do that.  Therefore, I'll remind anyone of earlier
comments they've made if it helps, or clarifies, my arguments.

Joe Szalai

REPRO HUNGARY

At 03:56 PM 4/22/97 EDT, you wrote:
>I would like to know if anybody on the list could help me with some
>data:
>Andre Kertesz, the photographer.  The name of his father appears in
>two different spellings:  Lipot and Lipolt.  I assume Lipot is the
>correct form (for Leopold).
>Borsszem Janko.  Name of a satirical journal or magazine.  How would
>you translate this into English.  I suggested Jack Pea to the
>researcher but she was not convinced.  Also, does anybody know the
>years the magazine was published?
>Thank you.
>Elizabeth

        Lipo't is right. That is, an acute on the letter "o." As for
Borsszem Janko, try Tom Thumb.
        Eva Balogh

At 02:28 PM 4/22/97 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:

>Well, you may be right.  Besides, there's no need to be a nationalist when
>you already live in the best country in the world, eh?

        You misunderstand me. I would be the happiest if there were no
nation states. And Canada as a nation state is a great deal more ridiculous
than most. I would be very happy with a "world government." ESB

At 08:57 AM 4/22/97 -0400, Bob Hosh wrote:

>I don't think Eva Balogh is speaking of Manifest Destiny in this instant. What
>she is pointing out is that Canada and the U.S. have far more in common than
>most people will admit.

        Yes, in fact, English Canada has been struggling, quite
unsuccessfully I think, to carve out an identity different from the United
States in the south. But most of these efforts are not positive but
negative: anti-Americanism.

>This is the 21st century as you like to point out, Joe,
>and it's economy that is the real issue here.

        Yes, historically and also geographically speaking, trade routes
were not east-west but north-south. Canada's population of 30 million is
scattered over an immense spread between the Atlantic and the Pacific
Oceans, all about fifty miles deep from the Canadian-American border. The
American border from Ottawa is 54 miles (I know only too well because once I
biked all those horrid 54 miles!) but if you drive 40 miles north from
Ottawa into Quebec, you are in bush country. The highway suddenly stops.
That's it!
        This immense spread of the population results in huge regional
differences. Or rather, Canadians on the west coast have mighty little in
common with the people in the maritime provinces. It is surely easier for
someone from Vancouver to go to Seattle to shop or visit friends than to go
to Edmonton or Calgary.

>It makes sense, even more so to
>Canada to be a part of a vital strong continental and global economy.

        There is no question in my mind that Canadians would live better if
they were part of a North American Federation of some sort.
        ESB

At 09:14 AM 4/22/97 -0400, Darren wrote:
>Isn't all territory and ethnic construction just a artificial construct?

        Yes, they are, but Canada is more so than most. ESB

Kristof and the Mormon church have every right to go to Hungary and
to try to convert people, notwithstanding Joe Szalai's remarks.
        ESB

At 12:13 PM 4/22/97 -0400, Andy Kozma wrote:
>I am not a nationalist,but I dislike when some
>very educated person,brings up hwo tremendous the country she lives in is.

        Did I ever say anything about how tremendous the United Sates is? In
fact, as far as some people are concerned I am outright anti-American (;)).
I personally have been a great deal happier in the United States than I was
in Canada but that doesn't mean that I am nationalistically attached to one
instead of the other. If that were the case, surely I would have taken out
American citizenship. Which I didn't.

>And than try to show how awful that country is.

        Who wants you to say how awful Canada is. Nobody. You seem to be
enamored with Canada and I am glad for you. ESB

At 12:32 AM +0000 4/16/97, aheringer wrote:
>In article >, 
>says...
>>
>>aheringer wrote:
>>>
>>> This is very interesting.  All I know is what I have read in
>Koestler's
>>> book.  I thought in Israel the Khazar origin is not acceptable, since
>if
>>> we (ashkenazim) are of Khazar origin, we have no "right of return" to
>>> Jerusalem.
>>>
>>> Re: Hungarian history, we always learned that there were khazars
>coming
>>> in with Arpad to the Carpathian basin, ergo, Jews were in Hungary
>since
>>> the "honfoglalas".  Only, when I went to school, we didn't know
>anything
>>> about "The Third Tribe".
>>>
>>> Agnes
>>>
>>> Please keep us abreast of further developments!
>>Agnes, what were you answering to?
>>Miklos
>
>This one:
>
>From: Steven Weiss >
>Newsgroups: bit.listserv.hungary
>Subject: Khazars, Mongols, James joyce
>Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:12:14 -0600
>Message-ID: >
>Reply-To: 
>
>This morning on NPR there was a story on a documentary, aired in Israel,
>on the Khazars.  Like those searching for Atlantis, many persons are
>obsessed with discovering more about these lost people.  I would like to
>know how people in Hungary view Khazar history.  Needless to say
>Neo-Nazis use Khazar history as racist propaganda.  What is the GENERAL
>view in Hungary of the few things we know of the Khazars.  Arthur
>Koestler was convinced he was of Khazar descent, but what do most
>Hungarian Jews think of their possible origins in the Ukraine?
>
>My father has worked in Mongolia for the last 20 years as a linguist and
>medical anthropologist.  A Jewish man, he is convinced he is of
>Mongolian ancestry and thus was drawn to Mongolian Studies.  He has just
>published a book (in China) on the parallels between pre-Mongol culture
>and that of the Celts.
>He will be presenting his findings at the 35th International Congress of
>Asian and North African Studies taking place in Budapest this July.
>
>I too will be attending the conference in Budapest.  I'll be discussing
>the far out notion that James Joyce knew of the Khazars and added
>another layer of Oriental nomadism onto Leopold Bloom.  This is just
>speculation but Joyce could not have but been intrigued by a warrior
>people that disappeared soon after converting to Judaism
>
>I'd like to hear from Joyce fans in Hungary especialy szombathely.
>Anyone with any comments and answers to the above queries is welcome to
>mai me:  

KHAZARIA TIMETABLE OF HISTORY:
A Timetable of Important Historical Events of the Khazar Turks
by Kevin Alan Brook, (C) 1995, Distribution Encouraged

5th century:
        - Khazars dependent on Huns and allied with them

6th century:
550-630/650 - Western Turkish Empire controls Khazars

7th century:
625/626 - Byzantines establish temporary Khazar alliance

630s - Western Turkish Empire falls apart
650-1016 - Khazar Empire as distinct, independent political entity
679 - Territorial expansion of Khazars drives out Bulgars
late 7th to early 8th century - The Arab-Khazar Wars

8th century:
703/704 - Byzantine emperor Justinian II marries Theodora, a royal Khazar
711 - Justinian II fights the Khazars
720s - Khazar capital transferred from Balanjar to Semander
723-944 - Jews arriving in Khazaria from the Middle East because of
          anti-Jewish persecutions
732/733 - Byzantine emperor Constantine V marries Khazar princess Chichak
737 - Khazar kagan temporarily converts to Islam
740 - Kagan Bulan (along with nobles and some of the common people) converts
      from shamanism to Judaism
750 - Khazar capital transferred from Semander to Itil
760 - Khazar kagan Baghatur's daughter marries an Armenian governor
775-780 - Leo IV "the Khazar" rules the Byzantine Empire
780s - Leo II, grandson of a Khazar kagan, rules Abkhazia


9th century:
        - Many Turks and Slavs subject to Khazar control
        - Kiev founded by Khazars
        - Kagan Obadiah encourages synagogue construction and Judaism
830s - First Rus Kaganate established
838 - Sarkel fortress built with help of Byzantines
860 - Saint Cyril visits Khazaria and converts Slavs
862 and 881 - Khazar Kabars rebel against Khazar rulers
885 - Eastern Slavs united
895 - Some Kabars settle in Transylvania and Hungary along with Magyars

10th century:
        - Khazar Jews invited to Hungary by Duke Taksony

At 07:51 PM 4/22/97 -0400, Eva Balogh wrote:

>        Kristof and the Mormon church have every right to go to Hungary and
>to try to convert people, notwithstanding Joe Szalai's remarks.

Their right to go to Hungary doesn't negate my right to remark on it.  Just
because they have a right to go there doesn't mean I have to roll out the
red carpet.  And I don't.  And it's not because I'm not hospitable.

Joe Szalai

At 07:51 PM 4/22/97 -0400, Eva Balogh wrote:

<snip>
>        You misunderstand me. I would be the happiest if there were no
>nation states. And Canada as a nation state is a great deal more ridiculous
>than most. I would be very happy with a "world government." ESB

I'd be happy with a world government too.  However, a world government
doesn't mean that there won't be nation states.  And if you want to look at
really ridiculous nation states, look at Africa.  European imperialists
carved up that continent in a way that makes no sense whatsoever.

Joe Szalai

At 7:15 PM -0400 4/16/97, Barnabas Bozoki wrote:
>On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, A.J.Vadasz in his 4th posting about the HTMH (The
>Office of Trans-Border Hungarians) writes:
>
>> The HTMH 1996 annual report also treats Hungarians "in the West". I don't
>> plan a detailed description, just a few of the highlights.
>[...]
>> An estimate of Hungarians and descendants: Austria 75000; Germany
>> 120000; Israel 200000; UK 28000; Switzerland 20000; France 35000;
>> 120000; Israel 200000; UK 28000; Switzerland 20000; France 35000;
>> USA  1.7 million; Australia: 20000  (Canada not listed).
>
>I am not surprised that they do not know about Hungarian-Canadians. One of
>the "Fact Sheets on Hungary", issued by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs
>last year on "The 1956 Hungarian revolution", also ignored Canada as a
>destination for refugees. When in fact, one out of every five who left
>Hungary after the revolution ende d up in Canada. Peter Hidas last year gave
>us the exact numbers based Canadian Immigration data as 35,914. The
>associates of "1956 Institute" (Csaba Be'ke's and Ja'nos Rainer) only list
>the USA (80,000), UK (22,000) Germany (16,000), Switzerland (14,000) and
>France (13,000). I suspect these "historians" do not make a distinction
>between Canada and the USA. This "document" was sent to us by HTMH.
>
>It is not difficult to find how Canadians can be considered Hungarian
>origin. A Canadian statistics are very good of defining ethnic origin.. For
>example the 1986 census results can be summarized as follows:
>
>                            Single    Multiple   Total
>                           ---------------------------
>Hungarian Ethnic Origin:   100,725    112,975    213,700
>Hungarian Mother Tongue:    72,905      8,960     81,865
>
>I had the opportunity to scan all the material the HTMH sent to the KMSZ
>(Hungarian-Canadian Federation) with a covering letter dated Dec. 13, 1996
>and signed by Dr Erika To:rzso:k and Laszlo' La'body. In my opinion
>they wasted the money for compiling and mailing such an outdated useless
>material.
>
>Barna Bozoki

Census of 1991

pop.    Hungarians              home language

                                mother tongue   Hungarian       Hungarian plus
Canada
79,770                       26,240                          4,935



Peter I. Hidas
Montreal