Matyas ) wrote:

: First, I made the statement above because once again a thread (the title of 
: which has been mainained) was diverted to the "classical" who got what from w
ho
: and when and generally who did more wrong to the other, topics which as we 
: should know by now don't lead anywhere. I'm only sorry for those who aren't
: able to argue about anything else... 

O.K, so the discussion should be about minority rights.

:                                                 But even if I don't want to
: get into an argument about numbers again, I doubt it that your statement abou
t a
: Romanian majority in "Northern Transylvania" is true or documented. And don't
: blame it on the scientific library of CERN again.

So, after blaming the others for diverting the discussion to historical issues
you are now diverting a discussion about minority rights to the issues of
numbers and percentages.
Like saying "lets talk about the rights of the hungarian minority. But actually
hungarians were not a minority in Northern Transylvania. And if today 
by any chance they are this is due to assimilation". 
You have doubts about the romanian majority in Northern Transylvania.
You can also have doubts about the romanian majority in Transylvania today,
80 years ago, 300 years ago or 1000 years ago. 
While you are advocating minority rights, you smear
that hungarians could "deserve" Transylvania (they came here first, in a
desert land and have been there a majority until the fatal year 1918).


: Matyas

Cristian Alb

How about "Tedesko"?

To hear the business information in Hungarian language:

  Dial in Hungary: (36) 30 899 111
Looking for sponsoring people in Hungary.

Dear Friend,

I have a very lucrative business and I am looking for positive, 
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anyone who's interested in health and well-being for themselves and 
of others.

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For information on the product line dial: (to US)1-800-633 8284 / 
the reservation number is # 222 1111. 

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If you would like to sign up in US just call: 1-800-826-5200 and give
them my ID#nnn-nn-nnnn, or call me and we'll do it through a 3-way call
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You can try these products if you like for a 100% money back 
guarantee. A $30 registration as a member with LifeTronix will 
allow you to buy these any of their products at a 20% discount.

If by any chance you're not interested, then I wish you luck in all 
your endeavors.

Karol Rezi

718-456 1297 tel/fax

You can reach me usually in the evening after 8:00 PM (East.Time-
US, or New York time)at the above number.

In the mean time, I wish you a healthy, happy and productive day.

To hear the business information in Hungarian, German, or English
language:
    
    Dial in Hungary: (36) 30 899 111 or 30 800 111 (24 hrs/day) 
         in Germany: (49) 6233 3265 45 (24 hrs/day)
         in U.K.   : (44) 171 644 4040 (24 hrs/day)
   in US(toll-free): 1-800-633 8284 / reservation no.#777 8888

Looking for sponsoring people in Hungary (and the countries below).

Dear Friend,

I have a very lucrative business and I am looking for positive, 
serious entrepreneurial men, women, or couples in all countries, 
who would like to earn an additional $30,000 - $40,000 per year 
on a part time or full time basis without  out-of-pocket 
additional resources.  

We need people in Hungary, Romania, England, Germany, Austria, 
Czecho-slovakia, Polen, and United States, to become distributors 
with LifeTronix.

Our company, LifeTronix is revolutionizing the nutrition industry 
through a breakthrough, proprietary patented technology (Emusol 
Micelization) and is placing people on the Information Superhighway 
through this new concept of - Telecommuting.

The LifeTronix products are 3-5 times more bioavailable than any 
other nutritional product in the market place today. For more info
on products see below the tel.number.

Entirely done by phone, with minimal start up of about $30 US, you 
can build a business that goes worldwide, right from your home, 
building an organization of distributors in any of the countries 
we're open - where you make a percentage on all the product sold 
every month through these distributors; it wouldn't take an
Einstein to figure out the money anyone can make who's serious 
about doing this business.

The training and support in our company is second to none.
Proven leadership, superior products, a lucrative marketing plan, 
ease of doing the business, and the chance of being in a home-
business for yourself are just of few of the benefits our company 
is offering for the average people.

Hard work, persistance, integrity and character is what it takes to 
succeed in this business.  I encourage you to keep an open-mind and 
to listen to what you're about to hear about LifeTronix, so that you 
can make an informed, intelligent business decision whether or not 
this business is right for you, your family and the loved ones.

Here is an 800-number (toll-free) in & to US where you can gather 
some further information about this Telecommuting business, the 
money we make, the products, and more.

    1-800-633 8284  / reservation number# 777 8888 

This is a 24 hours a day re-broadcast of last week's (Thursday) 
international satelite teleconference where Larry Thompson (the 
founder of LifeTronix, who's been in this industry for over 20 years 
and earned in excess of $130 million US),talked to over 2000 people  
about this business and what it can do for them, their families, and 
anyone who's interested in health and well-being for themselves and 
of others.

If you have a serious interest in this, please let me know and I'll 
arange to get you on our live Dial-Out conference call this Tuesday 
or Thursday night at 10:00 PM (New York time).

I will register you with the company and they'll call you and place 
you on a live conference call (of course free, at their expense), 
so you don't have to spend a penny on the long distance charges.

For information on the product line dial: (to US)1-800-633 8284 / 
the reservation number is # 222 1111. (Dr.Rutolo from the Biogland
Group in California/US).

To sign-up/register as a distributor in Europe you'll have to do it
with the Germany Office (PM/LifeTronix).  In US you'll have to 
register with LifeTronix in Moorpark, CA.  You'll need my
ID#nnn-nn-nnnn in order to register.  

Call me and I'll help you through this through a 3-way call to either
the US office or Germany office.

You can try these products if you like for a 100% money back 
guarantee. A $30 registration as a member with LifeTronix will 
allow you to buy these any of their products at a 20% discount.

If by any chance you're not interested, then I wish you luck in all 
your endeavors.

Karol Rezi

718-456 1297 tel/fax

You can reach me usually in the evening after 8:00 PM (East.Time-
US, or New York time)at the above number.

In the mean time, I wish you a healthy, happy and productive day.

 (Igor GAZDIK) wrote:
>In article >,  
>says...
>>
>
>>Take care...
>>
>>Charles Vamossy
>
>    you too.   and, if you get down to it, check the size of slovakia
>    with that of the united states.   you may be surprised by the 
>    result...
>

I looked.  Now what?  Was there a point you were trying to make?

Anton Pevala > wrote:
>Charles Vamossy writes:
>[...]
>>
>> As far as as the hard words are concerned, mine are only a fraction as
>> hard as the Slovak language law that would put in prison anyone caught
>                                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> speaking a foreign language in Slovakia.  For an American it is
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> inconcievable for me to imagine a land where priests, ministers, rabbis
>> are sent to prison for preaching the word of God in a lanuage their
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> believers speak or in which their Bible was written in.
>>
>> So far it has been mainly Hungarians who have spoken out against this
>> law, both here on the Internet and in the press.  But I see more and more
>> people of other ethnic origin express their outrage.
>>
>> Take care...
>>
>> Charles Vamossy
>>
>The typical demagogy and exaggeration. The language law is not good and
>IMHO, we do not need it at all. But what you write ... - the same, as if you
>wrote : ... they would be executed!
>
>--
>
>
>********************************************
>*        Anton Pevala                      *
>* Institute of Electrical Engineering      *
>* Slovak Academy of Sciences               *
>* Dubravska cesta 9                        *
>* 842 39 Bratislava                        *
>* Slovak Republic                          *
>*   --  --                  *
>*  00 427 378 2311     fax:00 427 375 816  *
>********************************************

Anton -- First of all, I am glad to find the very first and so far 
the only Slovak on this list who thinks the law is not good and is not 
needed.  If there were more people like you, the "exeggaration" would not 
be needed to illustrate to other Americans what this law would do.  
Unfortunately, a majority of the deputies elected by the Slovak people to 
their Parliament felt that such a law should be introduced, discussed and 
approved.

BTW, as far as exeggaration is concerened:  the reason I did not write 
that people who offend the language law are executed is because THAT 
would have been an exaggeration --it is not true.  The punishment stated 
in the law is incarceration -- prison.  I did not write that... the 
majority of the Slovak people through their elected deputies did, who are 
therefore responsible for any negative impact their words may have on 
world opinion.

There is still a chance to avoid the embarrasment:  if President Kovac 
does not sign the law and the Slovak Parliament allows the law to expire, 
the law will disappear.

One last thought, Anton ---  there are a many Hungarian Americans, like 
me, who would like to put our whole miserable common past behind us and 
concentrate on rescuing our sinking economic and social ships. Good 
Hungarian relations with her neighbors is important both to Hungary and 
to Western Europe's leaders who are considering Hungary's admission to 
their clubs. I would think Slovakia has -- or should -- have very similar 
aims.  The recent signing of the Slovak-Hungarian Treaty, I thought, was 
a step in the right direction.  It also included provisions that would 
have guaranteed to Slovakia's Hungarian majority individual and group 
rights similar to those in Western Europe.

Unfortunately, the Treaty, which has been approved in Budapest by the 
Hungarian Parliament, has yet to be approved in Bratislava.  And now we 
see a law that is in direct conflict with that Treaty.  As a result, some 
people now say that maybe Hungary was too quick to approve the Treaty, 
maybe she should have waited to see if the Slovaks show signs of 
supporting it.  

In the meanwhile, Western Europe and NATO are nervously watching the 
squabling. But rather than both countries being dismissed as unruly bad 
children, Hungarians have at least the obligation of explaining the 
lengths to which they went in trying to establish good neighborly 
relations and the reasons why their efforts are so far unsuccessful.  The 
Language Law is a very example of the latter.

Take care...



Charlie Vamossy

 (Matej Lexa) wrote:
>Peter Hakel > writes:
>>> international treaties fixed the border at the middle of the main
>>> shipping channel of the Danube.  By diverting the river, that
>>> definition is violated.
>
>>  So Hungary gained some territory?  Is that a reason to complain?
>
>Well, I don't think they did. Otherwise Vojka, Bodiky and Dobrohost would be 
>in Hungary now, wouldn't it ? 
>
>
>-- 
>Matej Lexa                              At present: 
>Irrigation Research Inst.               Dept. of Plant Biology
>Bratislava, SLOVAKIA                    University of Illinois, Urbana-Champai
gn
>********************** "There's only one kind of music." *********************
**

Perhaps it is because Hungary chose not to make an issue of it, since her 
aims are not to gain Slovak territory but to ensure minority rights for 
Hungarians living in Slovakia.  But maybe, as a bargaining point, Hungary 
should make a presentation of  this "de-facto" border change to the 
guarantors of the 1947 Treaty of Paris and request that the land south of 
the main channel be turned over to Hungary.

Regards,


Charles Vamossy

From: Hungarian American List >
>Subject: Hungary Digest 11/21/95
>Message-ID: >
>=========================================================================
>From: "Peter A. Soltesz" >
>Subject: Re: H-Net History of the Holocaust List
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>In addition, it really irks me when Mr. Horn, and Hungarians in Hungary,
>sort of give up on a larger Hungary. Why should those poor Hungarians, 
>who through no fault of their own, happened to now live in a new country. 
>That is, somone arbitrarirly moved the magic border. The fact is that
>those people are still Hungarian and they need to be treated like that.
>Horn's comments (see The Economist, Nov. 6) shows that the overall 
>thinking currently in Hungary will NOT solve the Hungarian situation.
>
>Let me suggest that ALL of us need to seriously review how we can aid all 
>Hungarians to live in peace with freedom to practice their culture, 
>religion, pursuit of happiness, etc. Let us remind the current small 
>Hungary population that their brothers are out there. Some need lots of 
>help, and others can give lots of help. Don't let them throw both sets of
>these millions away due to politics of the moment.
>Thank you. Peter Soltesz.

What if I wrote: "It really irks me when Mr. Chirac and the French in
France sort of give up on a larger France. Why should those poor French,
who, through no fault of their own, happen to now live in a new country.
Those people are still French."

This could very easily apply to the Quebecois in Canada. I would resent no
end, any interference of France in the internal affairs of Canada. Indeed,
there was one incident in 1967 when French president Charles DeGaulle stood
on the balcony in downtown Montreal and loudly proclaimed "Vive le Quebec
libre!" He was unceremoniously put on the first plane out of Canada later
that day and Canada was right to do it. Despite Canada's current situation
regarding Quebec, France has diligently kept its nose out of it. France
does not voice any concerns about the rights and privileges of the
Francophonies anywhere within Canada -- it has its own situation in the
Basque which can be pointed at.

It is one thing to advocate human rights and democracy for one's ethnic
cousins in another country, but it should always be accompanied by a
sensitivity to the "other" ethnicity in that country. Whenever, I have been
in Hungary, I have noticed two sets of attitudes towards the fate of
Hungarians in another country. There generally is a deference when speaking
of Hungarians in Austria, and a condescending (sometimes arrogant) attitude
when discussing the fate of Hungarians in Transylvania. This sort of thing
makes me feel that there is more to the individual's agenda than a pure
concern for human rights.

Any difficiency in human rights in Romania is targeted towards the Roma
more often than the Magyars. If the concern is purely one of human rights
then the Roma should be equal in concern. And within the borders of Hungary
as it is now, the Roma should be provided with every human right and
privilege that the Hungarians demand for the Romanian-Hungarians.

When you talk of a "larger Hungary" I get concerned because it matters to
me as a Canadian. Canada is a party to the Final Helsinki Act. Among other
things, it fixes the current borders of Hungary, as well as other nations.
Hungary is a signatory of the same Act. You would do well to abide by the
spirit as well as the letter of the law that your government solemnly
signed. If you don't, your dream of a "larger Hungary" will turn into a
nightmare.
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

CHARLES VAMOSSY > writes:

>Anton -- First of all, I am glad to find the very first and so far 
>the only Slovak on this list who thinks the law is not good and is not 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>needed.  If there were more people like you, the "exeggaration" would not 

another exeggaration...

Have you been following the discussion ? Maybe it is 50%, maybe 30%, I didn't
bother to count, but 1 ??? I also don't feel like I am going to acheive 
anything by shouting on this group about how bad the law is.


-- 
Matej Lexa                              At present: 
Irrigation Research Inst.               Dept. of Plant Biology
Bratislava, SLOVAKIA                    University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaig
n
********************** "There's only one kind of music." **********************
*

MANHUNT INTERNATIONAL 1995 took place in SINGAPORE on November 24,
1995 (Friday):

1ST		Mr. South Africa
2ND		Mr. India
3RD		Mr. USA

Write to me if you are interested in finding out who the runner-ups
are.

Thank you.


Parker Lim

Jan Gajdos > wrote:
 writes:
>#
># Last time I checked it was you folks who moved the border river, weren't
># you?
>#
>    This is the question I can't comprehend.  Why there are so many
>objections  against sending the Danube through  other canal ?
>Changing border ?  The border is on the same place as it WAS
>before !
>
>    jano

Jano -- actually, both the Traety of Trianon and the 1947 Treaty of Paris 
define the border as the main channel of the Danube.  Since the majority 
of the water is now flowing through the artificial channel, by definition 
it is the border.  What I don't understand is why the Hungarian 
Government has not taken possession of the land the Slovak Government has 
thus ceeded to Hungary.  Is it perhaps because the Hungarian Government 
has no revisionistic designs on Slovakia and prefers to solve this 
problem legally and peacefully?

Of course, there are other, far more serious objections to diverting the 
Danube.  Ecologically, it is a disaster of epic proportions.  A number of 
international organizations, like Greenpeace, have now condemned Slovakia 
for causing it.  For people living along the Danube, it is a lasting 
reminder of the tragic foolishness of the same communist grandiose 
planning that gave the world Chernobyl.  The sad mystery is that it was 
implemented after communism died as the Wall in Berlin came down and most 
countries were able to free themselves of its legacy.  It is hard to 
understand why Slovakia stuck to it so tenaceously.  Perhaps you can 
explain it to us, Jano.

Regards,

Charles Vamossy

Jan Gajdos > wrote:
 writes:
>#
># So with that kind of history, plus half the size, your arrogance is
># highly misplaced.
>#
>    Joe, ha, ha ...  Russia paid us partially their debt in
>Mig 29  fighters.  As I heard, you (O.K., I mean Hungary) just
>negotiate with Sweden about some aircrafts.  So, please, wait
>until you will be armed properly, ha, ha  :-)  ;-)
>
>jano

I find your misplaced mirth very sad.  I hope Hungary and Slovakia never 
find any reason to arm themselves against each other.  I sincerely hope 
that your opinions reflect only a small minority in Slovakia.

Regards,


Charles Vamossy

 wrote:

>I don't mind foreignors participatipn, however would the Hungarians please
>speak up more and get involved. Say something.

>And as far as the foreignors are concerned and some of the hotheaded
>Magyars, lets not argue back with them for a while and perhaps they'll go
>away.

>Lets use this newsgroup for what it was ment for.

>By the way I have to say the Hungarians have done a great job on the net
>in the past six months. The resources on the WWW have really improved and
>increased. 
>GOOD JOB!

>Istvan (Steve) Mihaly

It's not that the Hungarians do not want to get involved and speak up.
It's that most Hungarians who live in small cities/towns do not have
access to INTERNET.  Also, the majority of Hungarians do not speak
English.
As far as I know, Internet is only provided in cities like Gyor, and
Budapest.
Tell me, how can anyone staying in Tatabanya or Komarom have the
chance to even own a computer or a modem and to read English like many
others do?


Parker Lim
(Singapore)

Subject: Re: Quebec and/or Transylvania

>Dan Pop > wrote:
>>But Romania doesn't follow the worst examples in this case. Should I
>>mention France again?  No matter how hard you try, you won't find many
>>examples in Europe where the minorities have better education in their
>>language than in Romania.

(Liviu Iordache) wrote:
>All this discussion concerning the example Romania should follow for
>solving the minority issue is pointless. And this is because, in 1989
>and 1990 the Romanian leaders have made no reference to a France or
>USA model, but rather very specific promises.

Dan Pop wrote:
|What Romanian leader made those promises?  Was he entitled by the Romanian
|people to make them?  Did that leader make other unkept promises, as well?

Does it matter that said leader made other unkept promises? How does this
descredit Liviu's statement? The fact remains that specific promises were
made and those promises were made to the citizens of Romania and if they
had any self-respect, they would expect those promises to be kept. If you
had any self-respect as a Romanian, you wouldn't take such a lackadaisical
cavalier posture towards such promises.

Was said leader entitled? There was an election wasn't there. The election
was attended by international observers as well as media. By and large the
election was fairly held. The current leadershit was handed a mandate by
the majority of votes cast.

Dan Pop wrote:
|Try to find something more convincing next time than the promises of a
|completely compromised and self-proclaimed Romanian leadership.

The leadershit was not self-proclaimed -- it was elected. If you want to
discredit something, it would be more convincing next time if you used more
substantial material than your spurious aspersions.

Dan Pop wrote:
|Other promise made by the same leadership: "this people will never suffer
|from hunger and cold".  They surely kept it.

Conclusion: Promises made by any Romanian leadershit and its people for the
past century at best, have about as much substance as a slice of white
bread left out in the summer sun for a month.

Action-to-be-taken: Never trust a Romanian at his word. 
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

Oxana Smirnova  > wrote:
>
> Wrong, "Rakousko" comes from the name of ancient celtik tribe "rak"
>once living there. The same is for "Bohemia" - it also has the name of
>another celtik tribe as origin.

OK, I can stand correction.  I was just making an unscientific guess
there.

Thanks for the correction,
Joe Pannon

Wally Keeler,


        First of all, i want to tell you, maybe sometimes i will don't


write so good in english, so please understand my mistakes . I read 

not only this letter what you wrote, but many of them what you send to


the Romanians and Hungarians . I'm agree with you because we don't 

must live only in past, and we must to do something to change this 

mentality . At least i'm not agree with this type of discussion what 

Romanians and Hungarians make, some of them are indeed interesting, 

but others are so sterile. This problem betwen our countries will not 

finish so soon... . I think both of us must to comme to a more deep 

understanding of each other, this is only reasonable choice, the other


choice is very clear the WAR .

But, something i will criticize to your way of thinking . What i will 

criticize is specific to all people who live in occident . Many of 

you, think because occidental countries are superior and others are 

almost BARBARIANS, i see many of you don't understand WHY these 

countries are in THIS SITUATION .

You and others, speak from YOUR POINT OF VIEW, WITHOUT TO KNOW WHAT 

FEEL AND WHAT LIVE THESE COUNTRIES IN THEIR HISTORY . WHAT YOU DON'T 

UNDERSTAND is:

THIS region of world has suffered many bad things, many negative 

events, these events was so bad...

But, the peoples of this region  DON'T FORGET these events . I must to


tell you without exageration, these events are deep writed in the 

souls of people, in their minds, is almost GENETIC .

This type of process is happening when somebody suffer(pain) INTENSE 

AND VERY MUCH .

But that's not all, after the second World War, this region was under 

RUSSIAN INFLUENCE !!!!

Another catastrophe over our heads ... . Milions of roumanians was 

killed from COMUNISTS, ALL ROUMANIAN INTELECTUALITY, ALL WHAT WAS 

INDEED A VALUE FOR ROUMANIA

The same events... . And you tell us to DON'T LIVE IN PAST ?????......


You will understand that when you will live these events.... Forget 

you brother, or your mother or your father  who was killed from 

COMUNISTS, or HUNGARIANS , or RUSSIANS .

                                             FORGET IF YOU CAN !!!!!!


        I don't want to defend Romania, but read our history to see, 

how had live the Roumanians .....

For US, ALWAYS OUR LIFE WAS A FIGHT, against others who always come to


us with INCREDIBLE DEMANDS . All countries around Romania tell us 

TRANSILVANIA IS NOT YOUR LAND(HUNGARY) DOBROGEA IS NOT YOUR 

REGION(BULGARIANS), MOLDOVA IS NOT YOUR LAND(RUSSIANS) . Where is 

ROMANIA ? NO WHERE !!!!!! After these people, we must to DON'T
 
EXIST .  Who is indeed an enemy of peace in this region ?

By the way, i want to tell you another thing . Yes, all occidental 

countries are civilizated countries.

But, i see nobody of you, don't think how these countries had became 

"So Deep Civilizated", so Superior....

Tell me please : France, England, Holland,Germany, Austria and 

Hungaria, Italy, what is so specific in the history of these countries


?????? . Is so easy to find : All these countries had a Colonial

 Empire !

Hundreds of years they take all what was good in the countries who

 they EXPLOITE !! 


         The OCCIDENT IS SUPERIOR NOT BECAUSE IS SO ADVANCED.....

 IS BECAUSE "THIS" OCCIDENT EXPLOIT HUNDREDS OF YEARS "THESE 

				BARBARIANS"


You write : Why you don't want to join the "GREAT ENGLISH 

CIVILIZATION", you end by telling us almost like a menace, if you 

don't agree you will be assimilated from this "great civilization" . 

			Cute, ah ?

Barbarians must to be assimilated if they will don't obey ! Hmmm.... 

after my poor knowdlege of history was someone who tell us the same

 thing and his name was : ADOLF HITLER .

Be careful, i don't want to say, you are Hitler ! I want only to show

 you the possible consequence of your idea . You don't tell us 

something NEW , so please understand CORRECT what i wrote .

Another thing :

        If something is specific to the Occident is this :

        You want to impose your model of society to others ! You think

 this is healthy ? You think all of us must to be like you ? You 

think, we must to take your "model" and to put this "model" in OUR

 LIFE.... The fight of others countries against the occidental

 influence have like reason this wrong type of thinking...

A lot of countries need indeed a CHANGE, but a change in wich this

 country can save the own specific, and to DON'T LOOSE THE CONTROL OF

 THE OWN ECONOMY !!!, because the Occident want to be the "BOSS" not 

only in his country, but to be the "BOSS" and in "other HOUSE" . 

That show me for a long time, because the Occident DON'T HAVE ANY 

RESPECT FOR THE SPECIFIC OF EACH COUNTRY !

And your letter show me AGAIN the SAME THING .

I have deep doubts about the Occidental Civilization . Now i live in

 Canada, and i  see what means this "civilization" at the social level


Here don't exist indeed a "Communion Betwen People", each family in 

his appartment, people live here like a stranger to each other, only 

money are important, only my pleasure,many people are alienated... . 

        The Occident is modern, but  is without any WISDOM, and The 

WISDOM come from TRADITION the really problem is OUR WORLDS ARE IN A 

DEEP WAR . One WORLD is a MATERIALIST  WORLD, other WORLD is a 

SPIRITUAL WORLD, the base of this world is TRADITION and  RELIGION .

 The only chance to survive to each other is to take what is Good from


each type of world . If we don't do that, i don't see our  future well


Come to Romania, or Hungary, or Bulgaria, or Russia to see this type 

of Communion . You will understand how wrong you are when you speak 

about US, in YOUR TERMS .

Finish for one time to think all things in terms of : Commodity,

 civilization, etc . Go and know these people, ask these people what

 they think about life, world, what they feel, what they desire from 

life.

KNOW YOU , THESE PEOPLE AFTER THEIR """SPECIFIC""", LOOK DEEP INTO 

THEIR SOULS , AND YOU WILL UNDERSTAND NOT ONLY HOW WRONG YOU ARE, BUT 

YOU WILL APPRECIATE THE """WISDOM""" OF THESE """SIMPLE(ORDINARY)"""

 PEOPLE .




        For the readers from Hungary( and for you Wally)


                                                        
                       Dear Tamas, Janos, Sandor,.........


These people are not real, that means i don't know somebody with this 

name, but is a virtual person .



        I will be very clear . The key of understanding betwen 

Romanians and Hungarians is so simple :

        People from Hungary, must to end to put all the time the

 teritorial integrity of Romania in question, if you will continue 

with this theory, will don't be NEVER UNDERSTANDING BETWEN US .

        The real problem is :

        Any Romanian will don't accept like a base of disscusion the 

Autonomy of Transilvania or  a type  of Regional Autonomy . The real 

problem is to protect the rights of hungarians in Romania more well
        
 with more good laws . Anyway, like a personal comment :

        After my father i'm hungarian, my mother is Romanian, always i


consider deep in my soul i'm Romanian, but always i consider i can be 

proud because i'm and hungarian . In the light of these affirmations i

want to tell you, i know very well the hungarians from Romania . 

Before to comme to Canada i live in a majoritary hungarian region in

 Romania, in Harghita, so i want to tell you this:

Indeed in the time of Ceausescu the situation of hungarians in Romania

 don't was good. But in reallity we both, romanians and hungarians in

 the time of Ceausescu we live at the same level of life, no one don't


had some privillege . After romanian revolution, the situation of 

hungarians at the level of rights is not only good, is very good . In 

principal cities where hungarians are majoritary exist a CABLE TV 

COMPANY, the owners are of course hungarians, and they do a very good 

job . Exist a separate channel only in Hungarian language, exist a 

separate channel for DUNA TV, day after day the cultural life and

economic life of hungarian community is more good . The people for 

example, who drive these cities are only hungarians, they don't need 

really an Autonomy, because they have NOW this autonomy , but under

the Romanian law . Almost all aspects of the life of hungarian

 community is only in the hands of hungarians

What i find is wrong to hungarians leaders from Romania is because 

they have the same reflex to put this teritorial problem . You think 

is really wise to put this problem at the table of negotiations, when 

you speak with Romanian leaders ? The discussions are about the RIGHTS


OF A MINORITY, IN A MAJORITARY ROMANIAN COUNTRY . You don't fell is so


wrong this position, when the interest of Hungarians leaders from 

Romania is to defend the RIGHTS OF THIS MINORITY ?

Romanian leaders are open to discussion, but when somebody comme with

 this position, you don't feel the processus of negotiations is almost

 DEAD ??....  Another point is :

How you think , will feel all the Romanians(ordinary people) when

somebody put this territorial problem ???

What is interesting to me, is because always a hungarian speak like,

what feel Romanians is not important, this is "our" problem and we

 must to solve this problem . In fact the problem is the hungarian

leaders, don't want to negotiate the protection of hungarians rights, 

they want to don't be under the Romanian rule, under

the Romanian law .They want to break a country .

 This is the true position of these leaders .

 From this position, begin all troubles betwen Hungarians and 

Romanians . I said in the begining of this letter because only chance

 to have a solution to this problem is to have a deep understanding

 about each other, but unfortunately i see hungarian leaders from

 Romania - and not only from Romania - don't let a chance to begin

 this process of  understanding betwen us . The mistake of hungarian

 leaders is because they believe the Romanians don't want a solution

 for this situation . Romanians want a solution, but under the 

Romanian Law .

        Anyway our Occidental friend have right when he say, we don't 

must to live all the time in past, because we, Romanians and

 Hungarians, we have two different point of view of history.

Hungarians consider when the Romanians take the Transilvania in 1918

 don't was legal, this was an historycal injustice, Romanians consider


this WAS INDEED AN ACT OF JUSTICE after 8 hundred years

of opression . So, in this situation what we must to do ?? The both 

parts will remain at the his own opinion, so that means can't be 

understanding betwen these two countries ???

        Let, to be sincere betwen us, the times in which we live are 

different, maybe for some hundreds of  years we'll tell for each other


i'm hungarian, i'm romanian, but the world will became a village,

borders will be only on the maps, i'm sure of that, in 10-20 years the


economical links betwen Romania and Hungary will became very

 important, day after day, our level of life will became dependent

 from  each of us, when Romanians and Hungarians will work for the 

prosperity by economical links, many of these problems will dissapear 

betwen us . Is only a matter of time . 




 I wish to all my hungarians friends from all parts of the world, and 

                             for you Wally, an Happy Cristmas
 
                                            and God to be

                                                with you

                            


                             Kobori Gheorghe Alexandru

Some students at Lundehaugen High School in Sandnes, Norway will try
to find out what people with all kinds of cultures thinks about
immigrants and immigration. Please answer the statements you want to
and return it to me by e-mail: , and please use the
subject "immigration"
This questionary are crossposted to all soc.culture-groups.


Answer statements with a number 1 - 6 where 1 mean AGREE, and 6 DON'T
AGREE


Are you an immigrant (Y/N)?

1. Immigrants are described as more criminal than other inhabitants!

2. Immigrants should adapt to aborigines' culture!

3. Aborigines should adapt to immigrants culture!

4. Immigrants should learn their new country's language before the
government give them residence permit!

5. Immigrants should learn English before the government give them
residence permit!

6. Immigrants that commit criminal actions should be expelled frim the
country!
'
7. Your relation to immigrants are tensed!



Please answer the statements and return to 


Cordially

Ingvald Haaland jr. and Ronny Lindal

                                                   -Ronny


Ronny Lindal                           Hotline: 906 48 157
E-Mail:             Fax:     51 62 21 36
WWW: http://www.netpower.no/~rlindal   BBS:     51 66 44 66

In >  (Liviu Iordache) wri
tes:

 (Dan Pop) wrote:
>
>>>And this is
>>>an important issue because Romania promised a lot when it was given Transylv
ania.
>
>>Unlike Hungary which didn't promise anything to the Romanians and didn't
>>give them any rights in 1940, despite the fact that they were the majority
>>in Northern Transylvania.
>
>I finally got it! According to Dan, present-day Romanian citizens
>(i.e., the Hungarian minority) must take the punishment for the wrong
>doing, some 50 years ago, of their relatives from a foreign country.

I have already asked you to stop putting words in my mouth.
I have explicitly stated, more than once, that whatever happened in the
past should not affect the efforts of solving the current problems.

If someone invokes the past, I can do it, too.  This shouldn't be put
in a different context, however.

>Anyhow, the real issue here, the one that Dan has a  hard time trying
>to avoid, is what the Romanians promised, in 1918 and 1990, and failed
>yet to fulfill. Have you ever read paragraph 1 of Article 3 of the
>Alba Iulia declaration? 

Who made that declaration?  Is it relevant for 1995?  If yes, feel
free to post it.

Dan
--
Dan Pop
CERN, CN Division
Email:  
Mail:  CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland

No one is disputing it.  

The question is the quality and quantity freedom its residents 
enjoy.

Charles Vamossy

 (VGhita) wrote:
>My Dear Friends ,
>
>Transilvania (Erdely, this for other people to read and fully understand)
>belongs to Romania .(period , no exclamation points , not needed...)
>
>Val

 (Matej Lexa) wrote:

 I also don't feel like I am going to acheive 
>anything by shouting on this group about how bad the law is.
>
>
>-- 
>Matej Lexa                              At present: 
>Irrigation Research Inst.               Dept. of Plant Biology
>Bratislava, SLOVAKIA                    University of Illinois, Urbana-Champai
gn
>********************** "There's only one kind of music." *********************
**

Unfortunately, I have to agree with you again.  I too am becoming 
convinced that it is useless to discuss this issue on this group. 
Good luck to you.

Nemoy is Russian means  “ Deprived abilities to speak, dumb  from
birth, quiet, tacit “
When the first immigrants from western came to established themselves
in Russia (around the XII century), they did not speak Russian (or any
other Slavic language) and  the Russian common people did not
understand a word about their language; so they called this people
unable to speak  “dumb," “mute”. All the Slavic peoples from Central
Europe call them in similar way )even the Hungarians (who are not
Slavs and use Magyar, a Finno-Ugric tongue  written in Latin
characters and influenced by borrowings from the Turkish, Slavic,
German, Latin, and French languages) use the word nemet to identify a
German. The Hungarians, probably,  took  this word by Polish influence
in XIV century , when Hungary made a number of territorial
acquisitions, including Bosnia and part of Serbia. and their king
through his marriage to Elizabeth, the sister of Casimir III, king of
Poland, ensured the succession of his son Louis to the Polish crown.

 По русский НЕМОЙ значит: безгласный, безмолвный, молчаливый. 1.
Лишенный способности говорить. Н. от рождения. Обучение немых.
Когда первые иммигранты от западного прибыли в установленный
непосредственно в России (вокруг XII столетия), они не говорили,
русский (или любой другой славянский язык) и Российские общие люди не
понимал слово относительно их языка; так что они назвали эти людей
неспособными говорить "глухим", немого. Все славяне из Центральной
Европы называют их подобным путем) даже Венграми (кто не с славяне и
используют
Мадыар, финский-угриский язык, написанный в Латинских характерах и
повлиял заимствованиями от Турецкого, славянского, Немцем, Латинские,
и Французские языки) используют слово nemet, чтобы идентифицировать
Немца. Венгры, вероятно, принимали это слово Польским влиянием в XIV
столетии, когда Венгрия, сделанная рядом территориальных приобретений,
включая Босния и части Сербией. И их король через его брак к
Элизабетой, сестра Касиьира III, король Польши, обеспеченной
последовательность его сына Людовик к Польской кроне.
Mathias Muench-Dalstein <matze> wrote:

>>ace226 ) wrote:
>>: Can anyone tell me what Germany and Deutschland mean? I was wondering becau
se 
>>: it's translated between languages (Allemande (sp?) in french). Is there a 
>>: literal translation or perhaps there's a latin root to the word?

>Hi everybody,

>this is my version of the origin of "deutsch", "german", "allemand" etc:

>1. The descent of the word "German" is simple: The Roman scientist Tacitus des
cribed the Germanic tribes as
>"Germanae" (maybe he used another case (-: ), derived from the Germanic word "
german" which means "spear
>man". BTW when Germans say "Germane" they include the English, Dutch and Scand
inavians.

>2. The word "deutsch" goes back to the old Germanic word "thiut" for "people".
 Also "duits" (Dutch) and
>"tedesco" (Italian) are related to "thiut".

>3. The Germanic people that happened to live closest to the French called them
self "alamans", "alemannen" or
>alike. That's where the French, Spanish and Portuguese word is from. Today we 
call the Swabian (SW Germany),
>Alsatian (that's in France) and Swiss-German dialects "Alemannisch". 
>But don't ask me what "ala" means. There are languages where "ala" means cave 
or grotto (the Baltic
>languages) - thus, is the alaman a cave man? Or is the ralation to "oel" (Scan
dinavian languages) and "ale"
>(English) an indication to the beer consumption of the Swiss? ((-: 
>Who knows more, I'm only guessing here. 

>4. Can anybody explain me why Russians call us "nemetskyi", Bulgarians "nemski
" (or similar) and even
>Hungarians (a non-slavic people) "ne'met"?

>Pleas follow up or mail in English.

>Bye, Matze


>--------------------------------------------------------
>Mathias Muench-Dalstein   Email: 
>World Wide Web:     http://www.rewi.hu-berlin.de/~matze/
>Humboldt-University of Berlin (Germany),  Faculty of Law