WOULD YOU CONVERT YOUR CURRENT RENTAL PAYMENTS INTO MORTGAGE PAYMENTS
ON A NEW HOME IF THE DOWN PAYMENT AND CLOSING COSTS WERE TAKEN CARE
OF FOR YOU?.................................................

IF YOUR EMPLOYER GAVE YOU AN INCREASE IN YOUR TAKE HOME PAY TO COVER
THE LEASE PAYMENTS ON A NEW CAR WOULD YOU TRADE YOUR OLD CAR AND
LEASE A NEW ONE?............................................


If you answered YES to both questions I have a program which can make
this a reality for you...................NOW................

NEW HOME - What may be the most fantastic government give-away began
in March 1994 when the Clinton Administration expanded the FHA 203K
loan program. This loan permits investors, like the company I represent,
to buy a home, that you select, and acquire a government backed loan
greater than the cost of the property. This loan can be assumed by
qualified buyer with no down payment required. Yes, that's right, the
investor can buy the home, add a modest profit and sell it to you with
no out of pocket costs and sell it to you at the bank appraised value.

NEW CAR - This company has added a unique twist which allows you the
opportunity to lease a new car and also receive an increase in your take
home pay to cover the payments. The increase does not cost your employer
a dime.

EARN MORE MONEY - You can become a representative, like myself, and
communicate this incredible program to others and earn a small fortune.

MORE INFORMATION - I am just one of several thousand independent
contractors through out the United States and I would like to send you
this nationally recognized company's promotional package on how you can
buy a home, trade your old car and lease a new one, increase your take
home pay and have the opportunity to make more money. To cover my costs
for the package with shipping and handling, please send $5.00 in cash,
personal check or money order to

I apologize if you feel that this post is not in the proper place, but,
we're looking for you!  People that are renting, and don't know how to
buy a new home are the people that need us the most.

We're real....we close residential real estate transactions across the United
States daily.  The next one can be yours.

        MIRAMAR ROAD ASSOCIATES
        6920 Miramar Road Ste. 207
        San Diego, CA  92121.2641

Name          ________________________________

Address       ________________________________

City          ________________________________

State         ______________   Zip ___________

Telephone (opt) ______________________________

No salesperson will call.  Your information will be held strictly
confidential.

> Felado :  [United States]
>
>         I fully agree with Karcsi: no question that the general antipathy
> toward Soros is motivated by a large dosage of antisemitism.

While I agree with the overall posting, I doubt there is "general" antipathy
towards Soros in Hungary. People for the most part never heard of him and
couldn't care less one way or another. Those who heard of him would mostly
put him in the same category as other successful expatriates, meaning he is
viewed as someone Hungary can be proud of.

There is a very special antipathy toward Soros which originated in the
writings of Csurka, and spread to MIE1P's supporters, but not much beyond.
Since they are below 2% of the population (though more visible among emigres
and therefore on the net in general) this is a far cry from being a "general"
sentiment.

It is no doubt partly fueled by antisemitism, but in fact antisemitism is not
the main thread. Soros is everything they are not: rich, successful, liberal,
cosmopolitan.  The fact that he is Jewish (a fact of no significance as far as
Soros is concerned, since he doesn't accept Jewish religion, customs, or
common goals with Israel) just makes it all the more clear that he is at the
pinnacle of the international conspiracy of judeo-bolshevist plutocrats, the
famed "New York-Paris-Tel Aviv" axis.

> And, by the way, this Soros-bashing has been a favorite topic of the "Forum."
Given the proportion of Csurka-supporters on FORUM this is hardly surprising.

Just to clear up another misunderstanding of this odoriferous thread, Soros
does NOT support HIX. How do I know? I asked Jo1zsi about it. I doubt Mr.
Soros would respond to e-mail from me, but he does make all awards of the
Soros Foundation public, so check it out.

On the subject of Csurka I have a question: now that the "kuruc" and "labanc"
wings of MDF parted ways, will Lezsa1k embrace him? I think I read something
to the effect that he wants to make MDF more open in that direction.

Andra1s Kornai

In article >, "Eva S. Balogh"
> wrote:
>Finally, it is somewhat odd that
>the geographic name "Transylvania" was known originally in Romanian as
>"Ardeau" (or something similar, please correct me!) whose origin was the
>Hungarian word "Erde'ly," that is, "Beyond the Forest." And Erde'ly's
>etymology is Finno-Ugric. It just seems odd to me that a native population
>would borrow from another language to describe its own geographic area.
>
>Eva Balogh

I believe the Romanian version of "Transylvania" is "Ardeal."

You make a very good point. There is much to be learned by studying geographic
place names. Often, the people on the landscape change, but the place names
remain. More recent examples of this can be seen here in Wisconsin, USA, where
I live. Our history can be traced to early French settlement via still-present
French place names. Many American Indian place names are still used, even ones
from tribes which have moved further west and were replaced by other Indian
tribes from the Eastern US.

In the region in Hungary where I am working there is a village called
"Krasznokvajda," which clearly has slavic roots, although no slavs now live
there. I found that, indeed, at one time, it was a slav village. There seem to
be many cases of Hungarian names on the Slovak side of the border, from
earlier days when Hungarians lived there. The Slovaks seem to be much more
bent on re-naming everything with their own version. Most of the Hungarian
names now can only be seen in parentheses under the Slovak names -- and only
on some maps.

David Hinds

Balassagyarmat is now (and was in 1930) in northern Hungary, just over
the border from Slovakia, and the church records are on microfilm in the
LDS Family History Libraries, listed under Hungary.  I've used them and
they go back fairly far (I used the 1750s).  Good luck.

Norma Rudinsky



i
On Fri, 8 Mar 1996, Val Campbell wrote:

> My father was born in Balassagyarmat, Hungary, during the 1930s.  Can
> anyone tell me where Balassagyarmat was, and if it still exists today?
>
> Also, if it is no longer, how can I access my father's birth records?
> Where?  Does anyone know?
>
> Thank you in advance,
>
> Val
>

In article >, "Johanne L. Tournier"
> writes:

>Sam -
>
>Now you're the one who sounds like you've lost it. I have tried to think
of
>a post from Janos that sounds like "anti-American revisionist drivel,"
but
>so help me, I haven't been able to think of any. I think you should cool
it
>on the personal innuendo - I think you are just making a false
assumption,
>and you know what you do when you ass/u/me something, don't you?
>
>Usually, I think there's some merit in your postings, in some more than
>others, but this thread is not worth its bandwidth!
>
>Yours,
>
>Johanne
>
>Johanne L. Tournier

>>
>>
>
>

Johanne:
Try reading what he had to say at the start of the World War I post, then
get back to me.
Sam Stowe

I was told that Balassagyarmat was in county Norgra'd, bowever my
father's passport lists Heves.  The first passport entry is for 1954 -
has the borders of the counties changed at all in this time?

Please e-mail me.  Thank you in advance!

Val

In article >, "Eva S. Balogh"
> says:

[snip]
>.................................................................. Indeed,
>it is hard to imagine that (1) the Latin language of a few Roman garrisons
>could have had such an impact;
[snip]

Without wishing to become directly embroiled in the question of *who
were the real ancestors of the modern Romanians?* (for now, anyway),
I'd just like to say that surviving Roman place names are not really
that *odd*. There are plenty in Britain, e.g., *London* from *Londinium*,
etc. And there are Greek examples, too: *Alexandria* in Egypt, comes to
mind, offhand. Don't forget that the Roman *impact* was strong because,
like the Greeks (who supplied the later Roman Empire with most of their
civil servants), they were so very well organized and didn't just *rape*
the places they occupied/conquered. They also introduced their advanced
(for the time) civilization, culture, written language (including the
signposting of their placenames rather than just relying on oral
communication), administration, etc.

Regards,

George

George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * Cybernautic address: 
Independent Commodore Products User Group ** Commodore=64 stuff wanted
* ACCU ** ARM Club ** Interested in s/h chess books? Ask for my list *

In article >, "Amos J. Danube"
> writes:

>
>    Sam,
>
>       Your behavior is very disturbing. You have no reason to
>    get bent out of shape. And if you think you do,  went your
>    anger privately. We don't care for such out of control be-
>    havior.
>       You seem to have an ego problem.  So either go and have
>    therapy or go somewhere to learn how to behave.
>       I guess your  idea of  free speach  is that  people are
>    free to say anything as long as they agree with you. Sad!
>       Please shape up!
>                           Amos

Amos, if you disagree with me, please feel free to say so. But you're
trying to apply the same gag to me that you claim I want to put on Janos.
He's free to write whatever he wants, as far as I'm concerned. But he's
not free to write it without being challenged. By the way, your criticism
would sound a lot more convincing if you'd drop the pseudonym and use your
real name. At least Janos has the guts to take public responsibility for
what he says and I respect him for that.

What steams me is that Janos made an unsupported allegation about
America's motivations for its involvement in World War I. When he was
corrected by someone who is an acknowledged expert in that field -- Eva
Balogh -- he sailed right on with his insinuations. I can only assume from
such conduct that Janos Zsargo is more interested in weaving conspiracy
theories to support his political views than he is actually learning
something about the First World War. And that he would continue to
misrepresent the United States' reasons for entering the First World War
while either attending or working at an American university is hypocrisy.
Honest intellectual inquiry is one thing; ideological axe-grinding is
another. They do make that distinction at Rutgers, don't they?
Sam Stowe

At 12:43 PM 3/9/96 GMT, George Szaszvari wrote first quoting me:
>>Indeed,
>>it is hard to imagine that (1) the Latin language of a few Roman garrisons
>>could have had such an impact;
>[snip]
>
>Without wishing to become directly embroiled in the question of *who
>were the real ancestors of the modern Romanians?* (for now, anyway),
>I'd just like to say that surviving Roman place names are not really
>that *odd*.

        No, place names are not at all odd. As the matter of fact, they are
very durable. As I mentioned most of the older place names in Transylvania
seem to be of Slavic origin.

>Don't forget that the Roman *impact* was strong because,
>like the Greeks (who supplied the later Roman Empire with most of their
>civil servants), they were so very well organized and didn't just *rape*
>the places they occupied/conquered. They also introduced their advanced
>(for the time) civilization, culture, written language (including the
>signposting of their placenames rather than just relying on oral
>communication), administration, etc.

        No, I don't forget that the Roman impact was strong, but Roman
presence in Dacia was very short. They occupied Pannonia around 8-10 B.C.
while Dacia was occupied only in 105-106 A.D. and by 271 the Romans
abandoned the province. Pannonia, on the other hand, belonged to the Empire
for well over 300 years. Yet, the Latin geographic names, for the most part,
disappeared by the time of the Hungarian arrival. Instead, just like in the
former Dacia, a lot of Slavic place names have survived to this day.

        I am certainly no expert when it comes to early history of the
region but, relying on some reading and using common sense, I find it very
hard to believe that Latinized Dacs could survive the onslaught of the
Avars, the Gepidas, the Visigoths, the Huns, and God knows who else when all
of these people have disappeared without a trace since!

        Eva Balogh

At 11:21 PM 3/8/96 -0800, Andras wrote:

>There is a very special antipathy toward Soros which originated in the
>writings of Csurka, and spread to MIE1P's supporters, but not much beyond.
>Since they are below 2% of the population (though more visible among emigres
>and therefore on the net in general) this is a far cry from being a "general"
>sentiment.
>It is no doubt partly fueled by antisemitism, but in fact antisemitism is not
>the main thread.

        It is very possible that in case of Soros, antisemitism is not the
main thread, but I think it is a mistake to equate antisemitism only with
MIEP's supporters. I just returned from Hungary and I find that there is a
certain preoccupation with questions of Jews and Jewishness in general. On
both sides; that is, the left as well as the right. I have met old
acquaintances from both camps and it never failed: sometime during the
conversation the role of the Jews in Hungarian cultural and political life
was inevitably mentioned. And not favorably. Call it what you
wish--antisemitism or not--but I think that the SZDSZ is doomed because both
sides consider it a Jewish party and therefore not acceptable.

>On the subject of Csurka I have a question: now that the "kuruc" and "labanc"
>wings of MDF parted ways, will Lezsa1k embrace him? I think I read something
>to the effect that he wants to make MDF more open in that direction.

        That's my hunch.

        Eva Balogh

Dear Colleagues,
While I do not like to dwell on the past, reconciliation with our neighbors
and the building of a better future can only be based on the truth. It is for
that purpose only, that I am posting the attached text, which you might want
to distribute more widely. This essay of mine, together with maps and a cover
letter, has been snail-mailed by Vdvn Sandor to all members of the US Senate
and Congress. If you would like to obtain a copy of your own, you can acquire
it from Mr. Vdvn Sandor, by writing to POB 750068, Forest Hills, NY
11375-0068.

                                   TRIANON
        The Lessons Of A 75 Year Old Tragedy
The 4th of June was the 75th anniversary of the Treaty of Trianon, the peace
treaty which in 1920 mutilated and dismembered an ancient European nation:
the kingdom of Hungary. At Trianon Hungary was deprived 63.6% of her
inhabitants and 71.5% of her territory. This essay has three parts. I will
first discuss the history of Hungary through the end of World War One,
culminating in the Treaty. Next I will outline the Treaty, its architects,
goals and consequences. I then will discuss Hungary's  guilt  and the events
of the last 75 years to show, that just as Nazism was not born in Germany but
in Versailles, so the tragedy of Bosnia and the evolving tragedy of the
Balkans (some of it yet to occur) can all be traced back to Trianon. I
conclude by outlining a concept which would reconstitute the Danubian Basin
and could stabilize the whole of Central Europe.
        Pre-Trianon Hungary
For a thousand years, Hungary occupied an oval shaped central plane
surrounded by the protective bulwark of the Carpathian mountains. Like the
crust on a loaf of bread, the mountains encased the lowlands in a majestic
arch from which all waterways converge toward the center. This perfect
geographic unity was matched by complete self-sufficiency, until this
harmonious symbiosis of the great central plain and its surrounding mountains
was destroyed in Trianon.
       For a millennium, Hungary was the eastern bastion of European
civilization, a balancing and stabilizing power between Slavic and Germanic
nations. Hungary's first king, Saint Stephen, wrote to his son, Saint Emeric,
in 1036:  Make the strangers welcome in this land, let them keep their
languages and customs, for weak and fragile is the realm which is based on a
single language or on a single set of customs (unius linguae uniusque moris
regnum imbecille et fragile est.)  Stephen's advice was respected and obeyed
during the coming centuries: Hungary gave asylum to the Ruthenians in the
north, the Wallachians (Romanians) and Saxons in the east, the Swabians and
Serbs in the south. Eventually the kingdom contained 14 national minorities,
of which the Magyars were only one, and in order not to hurt the feelings of
any, Latin remained the sole official language of the kingdom until 1844.
      Hungary became a constitutional monarchy in 1222; her  Golden Bull  is
junior by only 5 years to the English  Magna Carta.  This constitutional
monarchy was almost completely annihilated by the Mongol invasion of 1240-41,
but through that enormous struggle it succeeded in protecting Europe and her
civilization. Toward the end of the XVth century, during the realm of the
renaissance king Matthias Corvinus, Hungary's population reached that of
England, the court in Buda became a cultural centers of Europe, and the
library of Buda was Europe's finest. In 1526 Hungary was once again
annihilated, this time by the Turkish invasion, which cut her population in
half and the kingdom in three. During the 150 years of Ottoman occupation,
the west was taken by Austria, the center by the Ottoman invaders and
Hungarian culture survived only in the east, in Transylvania.
      Even today, Transylvania is the land where the purest Hungarian is
spoken, where Hungarian popular art has found its most exalted, most perfect
expression, and where Bila Bartsk collected his Hungarian folk tunes.
Transylvania is also the place where the Hungarian diet at Torda, in 1557,
declared the freedom of religion for the first time anywhere in the world.
Transylvania provided an atmosphere of religious and ethnic toler ance and as
such became the birthplace of the Unitarian and Sabbatarian religions.
      After the Turkish occupation, Austria attempted to take over all of
Hungary. This resulted in a series of uprisings. The fight for Hungarian
independence of 1703-1711 was led by Francis II Raksczy whose insurgent
fighters were mostly Slovak and Ruthenian peasants. They proudly declared
themselves to be  Hungarians,  as distinct from the racial term  Magyar.  The
next fight for national independence was led by Louis Kossuth in 1848, and
the Ruthenian and Slovak nationalities once more contributed masses of
recruits for the Hungarian revolutionary army, which, while defeated by the
combined forces of Austria and Russia, forced the Hapsburgs to accept in 1867
the formation of an Austro-Hungarian duality. It was Kossuth who later
proposed to convert the Austro- Hungarian empire (of 24 million Slavs, 12
million Germans and 12 million Hungarians at the time) into a Danubian
Confederation. Kossuth was also the second foreigner ever invited to address
the United States Congress in January, 1852.
        From Sarajevo to Trianon
At the beginning of this century, Russia sponsored pan-slavic agitation in
the region. Archduke Francis Ferdinand was the main opponent of the creation
of a Greater Serbia. His murder on June 28, 1914 in Sarajevo had been
encouraged by Russia and engineered by Serbia. The only member of the Council
of Ministers of the Dual Monarchy who was opposed to a war of retaliation
against Serbia was the Hungarian Premier, Count Stephen Tisza. When he was
voted down, Hungary occupied Serbia and by 1915 would have considered the war
over, if Russia did not have scores to settle with the Ottoman empire, France
with Germany, Italy with Austria, and so forth. Therefore the war went on.
      During the war, the Czech allies of Serbia, Eduard Benes and Thomas
Masaryk, transformed themselves from consultants of the allies into
architects of allied policy for Central Europe. They organized a deceitful
propaganda campaign for the dismember ment of Hungary and in their efforts
succeeded in obtaining the support of two criminally ignorant French
politicians, Georges Climenceau and Raymond Pointcari.
      President Wilson refused to cooperate in this conspiracy. He wanted
Europe's new borders to correspond with her ethnographic boundaries and he
wanted the principle of self-determination to prevail, but his views were
disregarded. On January 24, 1919, he protested the illegal Serb and Romanian
occupation of parts of Hungary and on March 31, 1919, he called the proposed
dismemberment of Hungary  absurd,  but his objections were overruled by the
French. As a result, the United States Congress refused to approve the Treaty
of Trianon, but this product of Neronian insanity, this plan, unjust in
substance and tragic in consequence, was implemented anyway.
        The Treaty of Trianon
On the 4th of June, 1920, one of the cruelest treaties of human history was
signed. Never before had a peace, imposed by violence, been more brutal in
its bias, madder in its destructiveness, more forgetful of the lessons of
history and better calculated to create future upheavals. The treaty cut
mercilessly into the flesh of compact Hungarian populations. Hundreds of
towns were separated from their suburbs; villages were split in two;
communities were deprived of their parish churches or cemeteries; townships
were cut off from their railroad stations and their water supplies. A
1000-year-old European country was made into an invalid as its territory was
reduced from 325,000 to
93,000 square kilometers. In the process, 35% of all Hungarians were turned
into foreigners within the towns built by their fathers, as the borders were
redrawn around them. In this way, the Hungarians became Europe's largest
minority as Hungary's territory was reduced by 71.3%. In comparison, the
leader of the central powers: Germany lost only 9.5% of its territory. The
outrage of this mockery of justice is illustrated by the fact that even
Austria lined up at the carcass and received some parts of the dismembered
Hungarian Kingdom.
      From the fragments of Hungary, the unnatural successor states of
Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia and greater Romania were created. These artificial
entities forced Croats to live with Serbs and Czechs to live with Slovaks,
demonstrating both the arrogance and the ignorance of Trianon's architects.
These successor states were not only geographic monstrosities but also
economic absurdities and therefore their self-destruction was just a matter
of time. As of this writing two of the three successor states have already
disintegrated. One of the purposes of this writing is to suggest a plan to
construct a healthy federation from the disintegrated pieces and to achieve
that transformation without violence.
        Self-Determination Through Plebiscites
The very foundation of the 14 Wilsonian Principles was that people have an
unalien able right to determine their own destiny. Yet at Trianon the
application of self- determination and the use of plebiscites in drawing the
new borders was totally disregarded. When the recommendations of one of the
delegates to the Peace Conference, those of Field Marshall Ian Smith, to hold
plebiscites in Transylvania, Slovakia, Ruthenia, Croatia and Slavonia were
rejected, he was correct in declaring:  A plebiscite refused is a plebiscite
taken.  By not allowing plebiscites, the dismember ment of the
Austro-Hungarian empire and the redistribution of her 48 million citizens
resulted in the creation of 16 million oppressed ethnic minorities. These
were not emigrants who voluntarily left their  old country,  but people who
never in their life moved from their home towns and became foreigners, just
because Climenceau and Benes decided to redraw the borders around them.
      When the Wends and Slovenes of the Murakvz protested their separation
from Hungary, when the Ruthenians expressed their desire to remain part of
the kingdom which they shared for a thousand years, when the Swabians of the
Banat protested their annexation into Romania and Yugoslavia (Vojvodina), the
answer of Climenceau was always the same: no, no and no. There was only one
exception to the arbitrary drawing of the new borders (mostly by Eduard
Benes), there was only a single case where President Wilson's principle of
self-determination prevailed: It was in the case of the city of Sopron, which
was allowed to hold a plebiscite and voted by a majority of 65% to remain
part of Hungary and not to join Austria.
        The  Guilt  Of Hungary
Hungary was dismembered because she could not defend herself and because her
greedy neighbors decided to help themselves to the unprotected carcass.
Naturally, the architects of Trianon could not admit this and therefore
invented the theory of  Hun gary's Guilt,  claiming that 1) She started the
First World War and 2) She was a historical German ally and as such a
destabilizing force in Europe. Neither were true.
      It was the Serb para-governmental organization, Narodna Obrana, which,
with the
encouragement of Russia and with the goal of a Greater Serbia, assassinated
Archduke Francis Ferdinand in 1914 and it was the Premier of Hungary, who
alone in the Austro-Hungarian Council of Ministers, voted against a war of
retaliation against Serbia.
      As to the claim of being a  natural  German ally, history proves just
the opposite. Whenever Hungary was independent, she acted as a keystone of
balance between the Germanic and Slavic peoples and prevented attempts at
both Pan-Germanic and Pan- Slavic expansions. In the first 500 years of her
existence, starting with the battle of Lechfeld in 955, Hungary fought to
block the spread of German influence and created stability by filling the
power vacuum of the region. When under Germanic (Austrian) occupation between
1688 and 1867, she twice rose against the Germans and eventually gained her
independence from them.
        Tacitus:  We Hate Whom We Hurt
In any society, the acid test of civilization is the respect for minority
rights. The Great Powers attempted to guarantee these rights by making the
successor states sign  minority treaties,  which outlined the language,
religious, cultural and property rights of the minorities. For example, the
minority treaty signed with Romania on the 9th of December, 1919 in Paris, a
treaty guaranteed by the United States, Britain, France, Italy and Japan,
stated the following:
         Article 8:  No restriction shall be imposed on the free use of any
language.
         Article 9:  Equal rights to establish, manage and control religious
institutions, schools and other educational establishments.
         In Article 11:  Roumania agrees to accord to the communities of the
Szecklers (Hungarian Szikelys) and Saxons in Transylvania local autonomy in
regard to scholastic and religious matters.
         Article 12:  Roumania agrees that the stipulations in the foregoing
Articles, constitute obligations of international concern.
         Similar treaties were signed with the other successor states, but
none were ever enforced. In fact, the Great Powers looked the other way while
the successor states attempted to  solve  their minority problems, first
through denationalization, then by ethnic cleansing through deportations,
expulsions, transfers, dispersions and other forms of uprooting. Hungarians
had to choose between their nationality and their property. Because of the
savage oppression, intimidation and coercion, 350,000 Hungarians decided to
leave all their possessions behind and flee to rump Hungary.
      The institutions and possessions of Hungarian communities were also
targeted. In Transylvania alone, the Hungarian community lost 1,665 of her
schools, including the world famous Janos Bolyai University, named after
Einstein's predecessor, the inventor of the new (non-Euclidean) geometry.
        The Paris Peace Treaty
On February 10, 1947, the Great Powers had another opportunity to enforce the
until- then-disregarded minority treaties. This was expected because on
August 14, 1941, the Atlantic Charter was signed, and it too (like the
earlier Wilsonian principles) empha sized the right to self-determination and
to plebiscites. Yet, not a single plebiscite was allowed. In fact, rump
Hungary was further violated by the transfer of additional land to Slovakia.
This transfer, later, made possible the construction which unilaterally and
illegally transferred the Danube, Hungary's border river, onto Slovak
territory (in 1992) and to build a hydroelectric dam, thereby destroying
Europe's oldest wetland region.
      At the end of the Second World War, the worst crime of legalistic
hypocrisy occurred: Eduard Benes, with the scandalous connivance of the
Western Allies, invented the concept of  collective responsibility  and used
it to confiscate the properties of the Hungarian minorities in Slovakia and
later, to deport them in cattle cars. To understand the hypocrisy of this
deed, one must realize that wartime Slovakia under Tiso was a protectorate of
Nazi Germany, while it was the representative of the Hungarian minority in
the Slovak parliament, Janos Esterhazy, who cast the only dissenting vote
against the Jewish laws, which were passed by that body. Yet, after the war,
Esterhazy died in Czechoslovakian jail and the Hungarian minorities he
represented were collectively sentenced as war criminals. Thereby, when the
deported Jewish Hungari ans returned from the death camps, they found their
properties confiscated, because of their  collective responsibility.
        The Last Decades
By the late 1940s, the last protection left to the Catholic Hungarian
minorities were their churches. In 1948, 600 Hungarian Catholic priests and
all six of their bishops were arrested in Transylvania. Rome later agreed to
gerrymander the Catholic sees and to appoint Romanian bishops to lead the
all-Hungarian church, as the Romanians belong to the Eastern Orthodox faith.
The fate of the Hungarian Catholics in the other successor states was
similar. In 1949, in Ruthenia, the bishop of the 500,000 Catholics was
murdered and the parishioners were forced to merge into the Orthodox Chrurch.
In Slovakia, in April, 1950, the bishop of 320,000 Catholics was arrested and
his parishioners were also forced into the Orthodox Church.
       After 1956, when the Hungarian Freedom Fighters of Budapest succeeded
in mortally wounding the Goliath of Communism, the rulers of the successor
states used the uprising as a pretext to speed the forced assimilation of
their Hungarian minorities. It was after the Revolution that the remaining
autonomous Hungarian regions: Transylvania in Romania and Vojvodina in
Yugoslavia were abolished. Today, the more than 3 million Hungarians have no
autonomy at all, although it had been guaranteed by the Great Powers in 1920,
again in 1946 and once more by the European Parliament in 1993, in Article 11
of Recommendation 1201.
       After 1989, there was a short period of hope, when for example the
Hungarian bishop, Laszls T kis, was temporarily heralded as an all-Romanian
national hero, for leading the successful revolution against Ceaucescu, or
when Miklss Duray, the Hungarian leader of Charter 77, was released from jail
in Slovakia. Unfortunately, this did not last. By 1991, the formerly
Communist leaders of the successor states (Milosevic in Yugoslavia, Iliescu
in Romania, Mechiar in Slovakia) once again started to use nationalistic and
anti-Hungarian propaganda to distract public attention from the pressing
economic problems of their nations.
       In September, 1995, for the first time ever, Hungarian students who
speak no other language but Hungarian, will not be allowed to be taught in
their mother's tongue by their Hungarian teachers, in their Hungarian
schools. In addition to this cultural genocide taking place in Romania and
Slovakia, Serbia and Croatia are fighting over the posession of Hungarian
villages in Eastern Slavonia, which has been part of Hungary for 1000 years.
Yet, the worst of all tragedies is occuring in Vojvodina, where the Serb
refugies from Krajina are  ehnically cleansing  the native Hungarian
population, which had nothing to do with the fighting in Bosnia.
       One wonders if there is a limit to the patience of this, the largest
minority in Europe, and what will happen when that limit is reached?
        The Lesson
It takes time for historic events to reveal their consequences. It took
nearly 75 years for the creations of Trianon, Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia,
to selfdestruct. It took some 75 years until it became clear that it is the
legacy of Trianon which is destabilizing and  balkanizing  Central Europe. By
now we see that Trianon did not eliminate the causes of the 1914 murder in
Sarajevo and we also realize that no unjust  solution  can stand the erosion
of time, and Trianon did not provide justice.
      But what is justice? In this relativistic age, - when my terrorist can
be your freedom fighter, when the life of one UN soldier can be more valuable
than that of a thousand Bosnian children, and when the Chechen or the Kurd
nations are less deserving of self- determination than some others, - it is
desirable to remind ourselves of what justice is. On the pulpit of the
Notre-Dame Cathedral, Father R. P. Gratry has put it this way:  Every
nation's homeland is sacred. If you destroy one of them, you mutilate the
entire human race.
      Therefore, the main mistake of 1920 was that it attempted to satisfy
the desires of a Benes and a Climenceau, instead of attempting to apply just
principles to solve the nationality problems of Central Europe.
Unfortunately, this approach has not changed during the last 75 years. The
only thing that changed are the names of the architects of injustice. Today,
the goal of international efforts is to appease a Milosevic and a Yeltsin,
instead of establishing some general principles and applying them to
everybody. The principles of a permanent solution, must involve
self-determination through plebiscites, autonomy for ethnic minorities and a
Danubian or Central European Federation as the ultimate goal.
      The United Nations should declare that all national minorities anywhere
in the world (exceeding some minimum number, say 100,000) have the right to
hold UN supervised plebiscites and receive cultural and linguistic autonomy,
if the majority so desires. It should make no difference how these minorities
evolved, how long they lived in the particular area, or what their language
or religion is. Regardless of all that, they all have the right to maintain
their heritage and the right to determine their own cultural destiny. Once
cultural autonomy is guaranteed, the main cause of tensions between Central
European neighbors will also diminish.
      When the Hungarians enjoy the same autonomy in Romania as the Romanian
minorities in Hungary, when the Serb, Russian, Turkish, Albanian, German, or
any other minorities of the region, are also treated equally, the tensions
will disappear and the rebuilding can start.
        The Danubian Confederation
It is the wrong goal for the Danubian nations to rush into NATO or the
European Community individually. A much better first goal is the
establishment of an economically self-sufficient, politically stable,
militarily neutral and geographically large enough federation, which by
itself is able to fill the power vacuum of the region.
      It should by now be obvious, that neither Western Europe, nor the UN
can fill the present power vacuum in Central Europe and therefore they are
not competent to resolve the problems of the region. History teaches us, that
the Balkans became unstable whenever a power vacuum evolved in the Carpathian
Basin. The wise learn from history, instead of repeating it's errors. We
should learn from history, that the tragedy of Trianon will not be corrected
and justice and stability will not be obtained, by maintaining the status
quo. What is needed, once the minority problems are solved through autonomy,
is to build a strong Danubian Federation, one that can be crystallized around
the nucleus of Hungary, Slovakia, Ruthenia, Slovenia and Croatia, a
Federation that later could expand to include Romania, Yugoslavia or even
Poland, the Czech Republic and Austria.
      History does not solve problems accidentally. Those who want a better
future must first have a plan, a concept of that future. For the stability
and prosperity of Central Europe, that plan should start with autonomy for
all the minorities and should end with a voluntary federation. It would be
fitting if on the 75th anniversary of the dismemberment of the Hungarian
Kingdom, after the unnecessary and undeserved suffering of three generations
of innocent ethnic minorities, we would start the process of rebuilding, not
a nation state, but the Federation of Central Europe.

Bila Liptak, 84 Old N. Stamford Rd., Stamford CT 06905 USA
The writer is a former Yale professor

I am an American university student who will be enrolling in the
Technical University in Budapest for the academic year next fall.  I have
a four year-old son who has dual citizenship because my ex-husband (his
father) is a native Hungarian who has been in the U.S. as a permanent
resident for six years.
Our son's grandparents reside in Parad, a village about 70 km from the
city.  I do not wish to live in the dorms and visit my child on the
weekends at grandma and grandpa's (although they are wonderful people).
But I am afraid that it will be too expensive to rent a one-room apt. in
Budapest for the two of us and to pay for child care in the city.
My questions are: 1) Would it be cheaper for us to rent in the outskirts
of the city and to pay for the extra transportation, rather than to rent
in the city?  I've been told that a one-room apt. in Budapest will run
approximately $400-500/mo.  What's the going rate in the suburbs?
2) Since my son is a Hungarian citizen, would he be eligible for any
government-subsidized child care (if any such care still exists)?
3) Are American and British schools in Hungary of a higher quality than
the Hungarian programs? What can we expect to pay for child care
each month?  (That's my ex-husband's concern.  I would prefer
to integrate our son into a Hungarian classroom, since he does understand
the language.)  Finally, 4) How much can I expect to pay for food for
myself and my child each month?  (We eat a lot of fruits and vegetables,
which I know aren't cheap in Hungary!)
I would greatly appreciate ANY response and advice that any of you
might have for us.  Going on such an adventure as a single mother with a
four-year-old child is exciting, but a bit scary as well.  And I want to
be as prepared as possible so that this will be a year of enrichment
and challenge - not one of struggle and pain.

Koszonom szepen,
Kysa Koerner Vincze

We are a fast growing, data networking and security product manufacturer
with very competitive networking and test equipment products for ATM,
Frame Relay, ISDN and X.25.  We also have a broad range of secure voice
and data products that have been sold sucessfully world wide primarily for
government and military use.  The secure products are also available for
commercial applications.

It is in our business plan to expand our international coverage with
special emphasis in Eastern Europe (some restrictions may apply).  If you
are, or can recommend a Reseller or Representative in Hungary, Czech
and/or Slovak Republic, please contact me for additional information.

You can E-Mail me or call.  In the U.S. 800-537-9804, outside the U.S.
703-491-9348.

Please ask for Joe Lenyi  Director-Network Products

You wrote:
>
>I'm Trying to find out about up comin events in Hungary in the month
of
>July but most of all August.
>
>Can any one tell me of:
>outdoor performances
>Tanc Haz possibilities
>performances in the Vigado
>any special events that a 21 year old would enjoy, I love the
Hungarian
>culture, history and especially the dancing.  So if you have any
>information could you please pass it on.  It's funny I've been going
to
>hungary since I was little and I haven't yet had the opportunity to
see
>the Hungarian Folk Dance Ensemble or any other group pperform in
Hungary.
>So I would very much appreciate it if you could e-mail me back.
>Thanxs a Million,
>Christina Magyar
>
>---------------------------------------------/\--------/\--------------

>Christina Magyar                             | {}    {} |   Keep
>Carleton University                          |    \/    |  Smiling
>                                             |  \____/  |   !!!!
>Email address:        \        /     :)
>------------------------------------------------{ ||
}-------------------
>
Hi Christine,

There will be more information later, but I'll give you what I know
now.
There aren't many tanchazak in Budapest during the summer. Generally,
the one at Molnar Utca does happen on Saturdays. Check the Pesti
Vigado(available at any newsstand) or the throwaway newspapers
available at most large hotels for up to date info.

There is a Finno Ugric festival with tanchaz in Szeged 8/2-8/10 (check
WWW- do a search for "Szeged"). The camp in Jaszberenyi should be going
on at the same time with the "Csongo Festival" during the final
weekend.

If your interested in camps in Transylvania, there is one in Szekefold,
7/21-7/28, Gyimes 7/27-8/4, Kalotaszeg 8/4-8/11 and Mezoseg 8/11-8/18.
Email me for more info.

As far as performances, the Hungarian State Ensemble and the Budapest
Ensemble perform around 5 times a week each all summer in Budapest.

Hope this is useful for you,

Jon Rand

At 08:02 AM 3/9/96 -0500, Sam wrote in connection with Janos Zsargo's view
of the United States's entry into the First World War:

>What steams me is that Janos made an unsupported allegation about
>America's motivations for its involvement in World War I. When he was
>corrected by someone who is an acknowledged expert in that field -- Eva
>Balogh -- he sailed right on with his insinuations. I can only assume from
>such conduct that Janos Zsargo is more interested in weaving conspiracy
>theories to support his political views than he is actually learning
>something about the First World War. And that he would continue to
>misrepresent the United States' reasons for entering the First World War
>while either attending or working at an American university is hypocrisy.
>Honest intellectual inquiry is one thing; ideological axe-grinding is
>another. They do make that distinction at Rutgers, don't they?

Sam, what you don't seem to understand entirely is the psyche of a Hungarian
(foreign in general) student who has been in the United States for only for
a few years. I am speaking from experience: it takes at least five years to
understand this country, its institutions, its history, and its people. At
least five years! Moreover, those five years should be spent in a more
"normal, everyday" surroundings than some graduate student pad. During the
first few years the newcomer often misinterprets what he sees or what he
hears. There is a tendency to "look down" on Americans, a tendency to view
your own country through pink glasses: every comparison you make is in favor
of the country, continent you are accustomed to. I am sure that others on
this list who have been in this country for many, many years will be able to
attest to the above. I think this is the problem with Janos--give him some
time: eventually most of us get it!

Eva Balogh

Friends,

Sam wrote on March 9, 1996,

not free to write it without being challenged. By the way, your criticism
would sound a lot more convincing if you'd drop the pseudonym and use your
            --------------------------------------------------------------
real name. At least Janos has the guts to take public responsibility for
----------                ------------------------------------------
what he says and I respect him for that.

and wrote about Janos Zsargo,

something about the First World War. And that he would continue to
misrepresent the United States' reasons for entering the First World War
while either attending or working at an American university is hypocrisy.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Honest intellectual inquiry is one thing; ideological axe-grinding is
---------------------------
another. They do make that distinction at Rutgers, don't they?
         -----------------------------------------------------
Sam Stowe

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    I don't think I need to convice anybody on the list about Sam's
fairness, honesty, and civility,
                                     Amos

I am doing research on Felix the Cat and was wondering if you
ever saw him in Hungry.


If you like Felix, please send me an email.  Thanks.

Thank you for info.  Much appreciated.

Cecilia (and any other interested party),

Further to the earlier posting, you might be interested in an article
in the US mag *Internet World* (Feb '96 issue, p.42 *Second Opinion* by
Anne Hart) which discusses finding medical information (and communicating
with others on the subject) on the 'net.

Regards,

George

George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * Cybernautic address: 
Independent Commodore Products User Group ** Commodore=64 stuff wanted
* ACCU ** ARM Club ** Interested in s/h chess books? Ask for my list *

>You might want to delve into the works of Randolph Bourne, perhaps
>the most articulate American writer to oppose American intervention in the
>conflict. Even Bourne wrote disparagingly of "magyarization" in greater
>Hungary before and during the war.

        I am not trying to whitewash the Hungarian administration but the
so-called Magyarization prior to 1918 has been greatly exaggerated. The fact
was that the vast majority of the non-Hungarian-speaking population of the
country was unable to speak Hungarian as late as the last pre-war census
(1910). To be precise only 22%! So, surely, Magyarization or no
Magyarization attempts, the Magyarization wasn't too successful. First of
all, it wasn't because most of the schools in Hungary were in the churches'
hands and thus the language of instruction was determined by the churches
running the schools. And most churches opted to use the languages spoken in
the community. Only state schools required to use Hungarian as language of
instruction. They were few in number and their success rate especially in
solidly non-Hungarian-speaking villages was poor due to lack of opportunity
to speak the language. Most of the assimilation was achieved by natural
means: i.e., urbanization, greater mobility, a fairly brisk economic
development between 1867 and 1914.

        Eva Balogh

E.Balogh wrote:

>Sam, what you don't seem to understand entirely is the psyche of a Hungarian
>(foreign in general) student who has been in the United States for only for
>a few years. I am speaking from experience: it takes at least five years to
>understand this country, its institutions, its history, and its people. At
>least five years! Moreover, those five years should be spent in a more
>"normal, everyday" surroundings than some graduate student pad. During the
>first few years the newcomer often misinterprets what he sees or what he
>hears. There is a tendency to "look down" on Americans, a tendency to view
>your own country through pink glasses: every comparison you make is in favor
>of the country, continent you are accustomed to. I am sure that others on
>this list who have been in this country for many, many years will be able to
>attest to the above. I think this is the problem with Janos--give him some
>time: eventually most of us get it!

Na alljon meg az a budos gozhenger egy pillanatra! Who 'is looking down' on
the Americans? What is this bullshit about? How is this come to my debate
with Sam. I was talking about the reasons why the US entered to WWI and
did not compare anyone and anything to the US. I was not even talk about
Trianon it was brought up by Sam Stowe. I am just interested in military
history, strategy so the WWs are a kind of favourite subjects to me.
No, kedves Eva, you are wrong. The root of problem is that Sam is an idealist
and I am not. I do not believe that ANY POLITICAL POWER (not even the USA) do
anything just for 'civilization','greater good', 'mankind'. That is why
Sam considers me as Anti-Americanist. The revisionism (especially by force)
is only a creation of Sam's paranoid mind, and this has nothing to do where-
ever I am on the Globe. So, please, Eva reserve your speculations to your
gentleman on Forum, but let me alone. I am not your little ill cat to talk
about me like that, I am older than you think. And you were upset about the
'Evikem'!?

Janos

S. Stowe wrote:

>What steams me is that Janos made an unsupported allegation about
>America's motivations for its involvement in World War I. When he was
>corrected by someone who is an acknowledged expert in that field -- Eva
>Balogh -- he sailed right on with his insinuations. I can only assume from
>such conduct that Janos Zsargo is more interested in weaving conspiracy
>theories to support his political views than he is actually learning
>something about the First World War. And that he would continue to
>misrepresent the United States' reasons for entering the First World War
>while either attending or working at an American university is hypocrisy.
>Honest intellectual inquiry is one thing; ideological axe-grinding is
>another. They do make that distinction at Rutgers, don't they?
>Sam Stowe

Anyone who is interested in can read the debate over and can have his or
her own opinion. I think I tried to be detailed and support my ideas with
recitements. I DID literature search, I went to the library for book(s)
on the subject. Yes I agree I do not have the affinity to believe that
the antante (and the US) was the 'good' and the central powers was the
'bad' in WWI. If this is Anti-Americanism than I am Anti-American. But
I am sorry I cannot imagine my Grandfather who fought in the austro-
hungarian army when he was a 17 as a barbarian.

Janos

P.S: Sam, I do not know what do you teach in College, but I would not
be surprised if I knew more about WWI and WWII than you as far as the
military movements, warfares are concerned. (actually maybe even more
than Eva Balogh knows)