>
> --Interesting you should say that.  I have a number of British friends,
> whom I assure you I love dearly, who are socialists.  Most consider the
> Labour Party to be too far to the right and won't joint it!  Prior to
> the end of Russian domination in Eastern Europe, they defended the
> USSR and its satellites.  They recognized that there were some problems,
> but nevertheless, on the whole, they believed that Eastern Europe was
> on the right track.  After the fall, they said, "Oh, well, that wasn't
> really true communism.  It was Leninism."  I can also cite for you a
> very nice Hungarian scholar who was an apologist for the old communist
> regime who, in her recent writings, is backtracking like Hell.  I'd
> rather not identify her, because she really is a lovely human being and
> has always meant well.
>

There were/are Marxist analysis of all that, since the 30's,
coming to the conclusion, that it was not socialism, but a totalitarian
deformed state. The collective ownership of the economy had some positive
features which proved more efficient for a while, than say the set up in
India/Iran but soon the undemocratic nature of it become a brake on
further development.

Cut piece on liberals etc, just an interesting figure to show
all is well for Charles to sleep even better over Xmas:

Percentage of DTI (dept. of Trade & Industry, UK)
export credit which went to arm sales in 1980-81: 6.5
                                      in 1993-94: 48.
(NSS 18/November, Export Credit Guarantee)

I would be glad to see similar statistics for export/import of
arms for other countries, including Hungary I bet it is
as depressing.

On Tue, 20 Dec 1994 08:53:36 +0000 Eva Durant said:
>>
                             They recognized that there were some problems,
>> but nevertheless, on the whole, they believed that Eastern Europe was
>> on the right track.  After the fall, they said, "Oh, well, that wasn't
>> really true communism.  It was Leninism."
>>
>There were/are Marxist analysis of all that, since the 30's,
>coming to the conclusion, that it was not socialism, but a totalitarian
>deformed state.

--But Sister Eva--that sounds as if I were addressing a nun, doesn't
it--these analyses that you speak of were pretty quiet.  There were
more apologists than critics.  In this country, many of the Left
opposed the war against Hitler's Germany on the grounds that it was
a capitalist war and not a people's war.  They changed their tune
when Hitler invaded Russia, but not until then.  As late as 1991,
one of my British colleagues expressed surprise at the level of
health care in Albania.  "Why that shouldn't be," he said, "They
have a national health service!"

 The collective ownership of the economy had some positive
>features which proved more efficient for a while, than say the set up in
>India/Iran but soon the undemocratic nature of it become a brake on
>further development.

--It is very difficult to maintain a command economy unless someone
is firmly in command and has an army at his or her back.  My main
critique of Marxism is that it makes the naive assumption that people
are good, once they have struck off their chains.  Thus Marxism
contains the seeds of its own destruction.  Better to make the
assumption that people will follow their self-interest, but that
it is in their self-interest to cooperate with others, since we
are all sailing in a very rough sea in a cantakerous boat.  If
the boat sinks, we all go down, so it behooves us all to keep
rowing.

Charles
Kook, Third Class

On Tue, 20 Dec 1994 09:06:46 +0000 Eva Durant said:
>Cut piece on liberals etc, just an interesting figure to show
>all is well for Charles to sleep even better over Xmas:
>
>Percentage of DTI (dept. of Trade & Industry, UK)
>export credit which went to arm sales in 1980-81: 6.5
>                                      in 1993-94: 48.
>(NSS 18/November, Export Credit Guarantee)
>
--As I have said, he repeated tiredly, I am not and have never
been in the arms business, and I wish we lived in a world where
we could scrap them all.  But we don't.  Are you saying that
half of British exports were armaments?  What about whisky,
Stilton, and Harris tweed?  That's what I bought from Britain
in the past year.

>I would be glad to see similar statistics for export/import of
>arms for other countries, including Hungary I bet it is
>as depressing.

--Do you know to whom those credits were extended?  Does this
reflect young Thatcher's success in Saudi Arabia, or did they
go to the old formerly Marxist-dominated countries?

Charles
Kook, Third Class

I agree with you that  laws are made to keep the status quo
for those in power. However, I agree with Marx that if there is enough
produced to sustain  everybody comfortably - and we reached this stage
- than the state has no function left (ie to enforce the law).
The problem is, that there will be a bloody redistribution process
worldwide. Time is running out.  If there isn't a conscious effort
for change, than there will be a different type...
There again, the technology is there,
the poor will be shot, especially those complaining types...
I can't see your reason for the existance of poor. People can find other
reason to think that they are better than their neighbours, there's no need
for poverty...


>
> In anie even partlie civilized societie, material rewards flow to those who
> understand the flowing of them, or hav the pouer to arrange the flow (this is
> alwais a minoritie).  There is a limit to mere coercion, although this can go
> quite far: Imperial China, imperial Russia, the Polish Commonwealth in its
> late years; there are examples all across Europe.
>
> Therefore, a modicum of justis is needed even in the harshest and most coerci
v
> societie, to make up the gap between force and the order that is to be
 achievd.
> Unhappilie, all this is based on law and judgement, and even if no judge is
> corrupt, the clevver alwais can abuze the law.  Lawyerdom collectivlie tends
> to work for the alreadie elite, even when there are lawyers who reallie work
> "pro bono".
>
> In the USA, in the robber-baron dais, public opinion of them then and later
> varied.  John D Rockefeller and J P Morgan alwais were hated.  I hav read tha
t
> manie workmen believd that Henry Ford rightfullie became rich, even though he
> was a fairlie paternalistic employer.
>
> Carnegie was a curious case: he came from the same Scotland that produced Ada
m
> Smith, whose ideas were mingled with notions of Puritan Calvinizm into the
> "deserving and undeserving poor".  It seems that late in life he concluded
> that not all of his successes were the product of his virtus, and that luck
> means sumthing, and that led him to found the Carnegie libraries (I guess he
> had his Adam Smith purer). I know little of public opinion anent him, but, as
> far as I know, he nevver was as greatlie vilifyd as Rockefeller or Morgan.
>
> That is, I believ along with Ecclesiastes that "the race is not always to the
> swift, or the victory to the strong", but luck has much to doo with it.
>
> I further believ that civilization needs an underclass.  It is an outcum of
> law and order--that is, there alwais will be those for whom law and order wor
k
> wo.  If we want to abolish povertie, we need to abolish law, and therefore
> also civilization.  We need the societie of Marx s infamous maxim, "from each
> accordind to his abilitie, to each accordind to his need"--of cours, if one
> believs me, no civilized societie can achiev this, for no law can enforce
 this.
>
> I understand that the medieval Church likewize thought, for one often runs
> across Dame Fortune in the likes of "Piers Plowman":  If worldlie success is
 at
> best weaklie correlated to one s vise and virtu, no:one can afford to make
 much
> distinction between great and small, rich and poor, and societie is obliged t
o
> sustain the poor.

>
> By the way, thanks to Gotthard for the lyrics of these three Christmas
> carols. I will never forget my first Christmas outside of Hungary, up in the
> Austrian Alps. About 50 of us, students, lived in a Gasthaus and the owners
> of the Gasthaus organized quite a nice Christmas dinner for us. They came and
> sang Christmas carols and asked us to sing some. It was pitiful: none of us
> knew the lyrics. The good Austrians were duly horrified.
>

Knowing religious songs is not necessarily a national heritage.
My kids and I knew much more folksongs and poetry (learned in school
in Hungary) than most people I met abroad.

I am looking for Internet contacts in Hungary, who can help me further.

The endgoal is finding business contacts to sell used PC's

Who can direct me to the right Group ( English language )

Wim
--
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
Restart Computers Overrijn 18  2315KA LEIDEN NETHERLANDS
Phone: 31-71-224551  Fax 31-71-227329 E-mail: 
Gebruikte en Nieuwe PC's en onderdelen.

>
> :Az apostoli hitvalla's
> :======================
> :Hiszek egy Istenben, mindenhato' Atya'ban,
> :mennynek e's fo%ldnek Teremto"je'ben;
> :e's a Je'zus Krisztusban,,
> :o" egy Fia'ban, mi Urunkban;
>
> etc. etc. Am I the only one for who these prayers sound totally ludicrous?

You are really strange if  o n l y  these prayers sound to you ludicrous...

> >
> --Oh, sure, that would have pissed them.  I notice that even John
> Major has stirred himself over that one.  But I must say that I don't
> think that the British really understand the market system.

I haven't met anyone anywhere who does. That chaos theory is the
nearest...


> landlords paid no taxes.  No, I don't have any sympathy for an idle
> noble class and I am surprised that you are defending them.
> >

Sorry, I don't like telling you where to smile...


> --Most of the press in this country is Liberal.  Nobody argues that
> point much.  The owner may be conservative, but most of his or her
> employees aren't, and the owner doesn't care as long as they sell
> advertising space.
>

Thatcher thought the BBC was leftwing... and all teachers
commies... I do think there are people in the US, who don't
agree with you...

>
> --Sorry.  I missed something.  I don't know who Bambi is.  Tony Blair?
> Surely he doesn't listen to Clinton.
> >

Yes and he had a team watching the Clinton campaign and reporting
back and advising. Afterall it is only ideas on how to sell yourself,
not on what ideas to sell... If I to believe the Guardian extremists.

> to vote, so the victory goes to whoever gets the most votes of
> those that are cast.  How else could it be done?
>

So you really think it is as democteric as one can get?

> >the democrats are better, if you haven't noticed. That's why
> >I think democracy stinks.
>
> --I noticed.  And to borrow Churchill's phrase, "Democracy is
> a terrible form of government.  But it beats the alternatives."
>

I didn't phrase that well, democracy as practised today is crap.
If it doesn't work, we should look for an alternative.

> Malcolm X
> Martin Luther King.  Nor is Betty Friedan.  Nor Gloria Steinem.
>

I bet they were the favourite of the comtemporary liberal press
straightaway...


> more Americans.  We're brash, but we're not evil.  And be warned,
> if I get to Britain next summer, I'm going to try to find you.  My
> wife and I would certainly want to take you our for a slap-up
> capitalist dinner.  Manchester is not far from our home base in
> Nottingham.

You are welcome to stay, we always have spare mattraces... Can spouse and
kids come to the big eat too? We like Indian best... They can upset you
at least as much as I can, I promise!

Eva Durant in response to me:
> What year was that? In my time they must have been undercover...
> Eva 

> >
> > Yes, they did. I knew a Fako elvtars who was in charge of the ebs
business.
> >
> > Jeliko.
Oh I think it was that way ever since "Eb ura Fako" came into parlance.
Regards,Jeliko

Nevai writes:
> :Az apostoli hitvalla's
> :======================
> :Hiszek egy Istenben, mindenhato' Atya'ban,
> :mennynek e's fo~ldnek Teremto"je'ben;
> :e's a Je'zus Krisztusban,,
> :o" egy Fia'ban, mi Urunkban;

> etc. etc. Am I the only one for who these prayers sound totally ludicrous?
 Ah, feed them to the lions. (again)
Jeliko.

Soltice) whatever your pick is. May you have a chance for some joy with your
loved ones.
Regards,Jeliko.

Eva Balogh writes:   (parts deleted)

 My only question is whether
> during October-November 1919 was there a real possibility to keep the army
> together or not. Those guys wanted to go home and who knows what the
reaction
> would have been if they, who just returned from Italy or the Serbian front,
> were told that they have to stay in their barracks and now start fighting
all
> over again. I don't know. Perhaps with a large doses of nationalism one
could
> have aroused the troops to resist.

In discussions with my father and several people who were participants in the
war, the comment came up several times that a real land reform (or even its
offer) for those who would defend the country would have worked. Something
like that would have been also better than a "large dose of nationalism".

Regards,Jeliko

Well I must have got the wrong notion - any time I hade a
positive story, I was called an apologist of the regime.
So what? Agent sounds so much better....



>
> Eva Durant, as usual, exaggerates when she writes:
>
> > By the opinion of the loud (vocal?) majority on this list, if you
> > admit that you had any good time in Hungary before the collapse
> > of the so called socialist regime, or that it had a few achievements,
> > you are automatically an agent of that past regime...
>
>
> Imre Vago from Debrecen obviously agrees:
>
> >It means, there are in Hungary at least approx. 8-9 million agents of
> >that past regime.
>
> Of course, no one in his right mind would say anything like this not even
> "the loud (vocal?) majority on this list." I spent my teenage years in one of
> the most oppressive, Stalinist regimes in the face of the earth and, you know
> what, we had, in spite of all the hardship, lots of good times of which even
> today I remember fondly. That was our youth and youth is captivating and
> happy. In fact, when a bunch of Hungarian youngsters (because we were all
> between 20 and 25) got together in Canada to have a party and everybody had
> quite a few glasses of wine, we all began singing those "movement songs"
> which were parts of our earlier lives. And in spite of all the horror we went
> through in Hungary, most of us were mighty homesick, especially since it
> looked then that we would never be able to return. Not only that but most of
> us were convinced that there were certain aspects of socialism (even the
> variety we witnessed) which were superior to capitalism.
>
> I am afraid you two are underestimating the intelligence and common sense of
> those "loud (vocal?)" people on this list.
>
> Eva Balogh

Sorry, I don't know Charles' address, but this is meant for him.
Eva Durant
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> "We're Number One, Where America Stands -- and Falls in the New
>    WorldOrder" by Andrew L Shapiro. New York, 1992, Vintage Books, a
>    division of Random House.
>
>  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Of the major industrial nations, the U.S. is:
>
> #1 in infant mortality
> #1 in death of children under 5
> #1 in preschoolers NOT fully immunized
> #1 in low birthweight babies
> #1 in cesarean sections per 100 births (about 25% more than Canada,
>     which is #2)
> #1 in beef consumption per capita
> #1 in coronary bypass operations
> #1 in junk food consumption
> #2 in cigarette consumption (after Japan) per capita lowest in
>     teacher salary per capita GDP
> #1 in billionaires
> #1 in children & elderly living in poverty
> #1 in real per capita GDP
> #1 in unequal distribution of wealth
> #1 in homelessness
> #1 in % of R&D on military purposes
> #1 in foreign MILITARY aid to developing countries LAST in
>     humanitarian aid to developing countries (%GNP)
> #1 in tobacco exports
> #1 in bank failures and bailouts
> #1 in CEO's pay
> #1 in UNEQUAL pay (ratio CEO to worker pay)
> LAST in paid vacation days per year
> #15 in women's wages as % of men's
> #63 in % women in legislatures
> #1 in U.N. security council vetoes since 1980
> #1 in NOT ratifying international human rights treaties (listed on
>     page 115)
> #1 in per capita in prison (rate for Blacks is four times that of
>     South African Blacks)
> #1 in murder
> #1 in state-sponsored executions ("capital punishment")
> #1 in deaths by gun (see p 123)
> #1 in greenhouse gas emissions
> #1 in contributing to acid rain
> #1 in air pollutants per capita
> second-to-last in % of population "very concerned" about Greenhouse CO2
> #1 in forest depletion
> #1 in garbage per capita
> #1 in junk mail
> #1 in hazardous waste per capita
> #1 in gasoline consumption per capita
> #1 in time spent watching TV
> LAST in books published per capita
> #1 in spending on Advertising per capita
>
> AIDS & RACE:
>
> "In per capita terms, we have experienced 3 times as many AIDS cases
>    as Switzerland, 10 times as many as the UK, and 270 times as Japan.
>    While [only!] three developing African countries -- Uganda, Malawi,
>    and the Congo -- have higher cumulative rates per 100,000 than the
>    general U.S. population, AIDS has been more prevalent in the
>    nonwhite U.S. population than in these three African countries"
>
> "America is becoming a land of private greed and public squalor.  This
>    book is an indispensable road map through the wreckage.  The facts
>    it  reveals will startle you.  They may depress you.  But ideally
>    they'll  fire you up to help rebuild this nation."
>               -- Robert B. Reich, author of The Work of Nations

what is tsunami?

> >etc. etc. Am I the only one for who these prayers sound totally ludicrous?
>
> Unfortunately not.
> Gyuri

Happily not. But luckily all the ones who take it seriously are
christians as we were told by Eva Balogh, therefore we are forgiven...

I do know that the best defense is offense and therefore I am not surprised
that Mr. Pellionisz resorts to it. However, I don't think that it will work.
In the first place it is hard to accuse someone of "religious bigotry" who is
not a member of any church and who is an agnostic. It is also quite obvious
that I didn't try to teach "religious prayer over the Internet." I simply
provided a translation of the Hungarian original, posted by someone else, for
the sake of those who can't read Hungarian. As for my entertaining the
readers of Internet with belaboring my "religious background (for several
generations, as it was customary in Horthy's time)" is worth analyzing a bit.
In the first place, I brought up my family's extremely varied religious
background, where every generation married someone outside of the
individual's church, as an example of the varied religious background of most
Hungarian families. Trying to prove a point against exactly those, of whom
Mr. Pellionisz is one. The not-so-veiled reference to Horthy's time is a
subtle reminder of the Jewish laws when all Hungarian families had to provide
a genealogy for three or four generations to prove that there had been no
Jewish ancestors in the family tree! In plainer language, Mr. Pellionisz
accuses me of Nazi-type racism! And, finally, calling me one of the
"religion-freaks" [actually, I think it is religious freaks in English] is
just simply laughable. I thought Mr. Pellionisz is more intelligent than
that.

Eva Balogh

Three or four days ago I wrote the following in connection with the Armenian
and Georgian Jews settling in Hungary:

>I already wrote a sarcastic little
>letter to the Forum, saying that accepting the Armenian Jews in Hungary
could
>be, in fact, very beneficial, and we should welcome these people with open
>arms since both the Armenians and the Jews have the reputations of being
>excellent businessmen and Hungary badly needs new capitalists! I am sure
that
>a goodly number of those who will answer will not even get the irony!

Of course, I was right. Today there are at least four letters, all telling me
that we should not receive anyone "with open arms." One letter writer
complained that I had no right to receive anyone "with open arms" because I
don't live in Hungary. However, I didn't think that someone from this list is
unable to discern the irony, especially since I told everybody that I was
writing in a sarcastic tone. However, here it is:

According to Paul:

>The Jewish Antidefimation League (JDL) would call this antisemitism, since
>you
>again label Jews with the stereotypical label of 'excellent businessmen'.


Let me repeat it, I was sarcastic. If I said this in earnest I might not be
an antisemite, but I would repeat a generalization based on stereotypes,
which is simply untenable. I have many Jewish friends who have less business
acumen than I have and that is saying something!

Eva Balogh

Andras Pellionisz wrote:
>It makes me so sad to witness [...] open disrespect
>of others' differing opinion!

Wow, what a hide, soaked in crocodile tears !

This pious pronouncement may even have some credibility
if it were not YOU pouring mediaeval curses at others whose
opinion differs from YOURS.

And why are you so shy about your identity to avoid
signing your posts ?

George Antony

Subject: Re: Jews, Kun, Trianon
From: paul, 
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 1994 14:33:34 EST
In article > paul,
 writes:


>Writing an article against settling immigrants who are Jews is not
antisemitism.

i agree entirely as far as that goes.

do you think that there would be siilar objections to settling
100 germans, or austrians or swiss or americans or canadians?

i suggest that eva balogh might think not and that is perhaps one of
the reasons
she views the article as a (veiled) expression of antisemitism.

d.a.

On Tue, 20 Dec 1994 13:54:13 +0000 Eva Durant said:
>
>I haven't met anyone anywhere who does. That chaos theory is the
>nearest...
>
--Now, Beloved Sister Eva, your ideology is showing.  There are several
on this list who understand the market system quite well and have posted
very clear discussions of it.  What you mean is that you don't like
the market system.  I have to tell you a story.  Last Christmas, a
British couple who were in the country on an exchange professorship
came to us.  We had known them during my sabbatical in Nottingham, and
they are delightful people.  Both are socialists.  We drive a
Cadillac.  When they called their children on Christmas Day, they
went out of their way to explain that they were being driven about
in a Cadillac.  They oppose the market system, bless their souls, but
they didn't refuse to enjoy the fruits of it.  I said nothing, because
I love them both and wouldn't hurt their feelings for the world, but I
was amused.

>> landlords paid no taxes.  No, I don't have any sympathy for an idle
>> noble class and I am surprised that you are defending them.
>
>Sorry, I don't like telling you where to smile...
>
--Okay.  I missed the irony.  I don't like using smileys either.

>Thatcher thought the BBC was leftwing... and all teachers
>commies... I do think there are people in the US, who don't
>agree with you...

--Of course there are.  But they are wrong!
>
>Yes and he had a team watching the Clinton campaign and reporting
>back and advising. Afterall it is only ideas on how to sell yourself,
>not on what ideas to sell... If I to believe the Guardian extremists.
>
--Oh, the Guardian is always correct.  Smile here.

>So you really think it is as democteric as one can get?
>
--Yes.  As democratic as it can get unless you march people to
the polls at the point of a gun.

>I didn't phrase that well, democracy as practised today is crap.
>If it doesn't work, we should look for an alternative.
>
--But it does work for most people most of the time.  That is what
you are up against.

>> Malcolm X
>> Martin Luther King.  Nor is Betty Friedan.  Nor Gloria Steinem.
>>
>I bet they were the favourite of the comtemporary liberal press
>straightaway...
>
--As a matter of fact, they were.

>You are welcome to stay, we always have spare mattraces... Can spouse and
>kids come to the big eat too? We like Indian best

--Oh, we'd not impose on you for a bed.  Just entertain you.  Kids?
How many are we talking about?  As for Indian cuisine, it is one of
our favorites.  There's a little place in Nottingham, for instance,
right across from the Theatre Royal...And someday I'll tell you the
story of the Indians, the Nigerians, the Americans, and the crown
jewels in the tower.  But only if you are good and say your prayers.

.. They can upset you
>at least as much as I can, I promise!

--But you do not upset me.  I like you!  I simply think that you are
mistaken.

Charles

On Tue, 20 Dec 1994 15:24:57 +0000 Eva Durant said:
>Sorry, I don't know Charles' address, but this is meant for him.
>Eva Durant
>> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
--Write it down, Beloved Sister Eva.  It's
>>
>> "We're Number One, Where America Stands -- and Falls in the New
>>    WorldOrder" by Andrew L Shapiro. New York, 1992, Vintage Books, a
>>    division of Random House.
>>
>>  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>> Of the major industrial nations, the U.S. is:
>>
>> #1 in infant mortality
>> #1 in death of children under 5
>> #1 in preschoolers NOT fully immunized
>> #1 in low birthweight babies
>> #1 in cesarean sections per 100 births (about 25% more than Canada,
>>     which is #2)
>> #1 in beef consumption per capita
>> #1 in coronary bypass operations
>> #1 in junk food consumption
>> #2 in cigarette consumption (after Japan) per capita lowest in
>>     teacher salary per capita GDP
>> #1 in billionaires
>> #1 in children & elderly living in poverty
>> #1 in real per capita GDP
>> #1 in unequal distribution of wealth
>> #1 in homelessness
>> #1 in % of R&D on military purposes
>> #1 in foreign MILITARY aid to developing countries LAST in
>>     humanitarian aid to developing countries (%GNP)
>> #1 in tobacco exports
>> #1 in bank failures and bailouts
>> #1 in CEO's pay
>> #1 in UNEQUAL pay (ratio CEO to worker pay)
>> LAST in paid vacation days per year
>> #15 in women's wages as % of men's
>> #63 in % women in legislatures
>> #1 in U.N. security council vetoes since 1980
>> #1 in NOT ratifying international human rights treaties (listed on
>>     page 115)
>> #1 in per capita in prison (rate for Blacks is four times that of
>>     South African Blacks)
>> #1 in murder
>> #1 in state-sponsored executions ("capital punishment")
>> #1 in deaths by gun (see p 123)
>> #1 in greenhouse gas emissions
>> #1 in contributing to acid rain
>> #1 in air pollutants per capita
>> second-to-last in % of population "very concerned" about Greenhouse CO2
>> #1 in forest depletion
>> #1 in garbage per capita
>> #1 in junk mail
>> #1 in hazardous waste per capita
>> #1 in gasoline consumption per capita
>> #1 in time spent watching TV
>> LAST in books published per capita
>> #1 in spending on Advertising per capita
>>
>> AIDS & RACE:
>>
>> "In per capita terms, we have experienced 3 times as many AIDS cases
>>    as Switzerland, 10 times as many as the UK, and 270 times as Japan.
>>    While [only!] three developing African countries -- Uganda, Malawi,
>>    and the Congo -- have higher cumulative rates per 100,000 than the
>>    general U.S. population, AIDS has been more prevalent in the
>>    nonwhite U.S. population than in these three African countries"
>>
>> "America is becoming a land of private greed and public squalor.  This
>>    book is an indispensable road map through the wreckage.  The facts
>>    it  reveals will startle you.  They may depress you.  But ideally
>>    they'll  fire you up to help rebuild this nation."
>>               -- Robert B. Reich, author of The Work of Nations

On Tue, 20 Dec 1994 15:24:57 +0000 Eva Durant said:
>Sorry, I don't know Charles' address, but this is meant for him.
>Eva Durant

--Write it down, Beloved Sister Eva.  It's 

--I suspect that these figures are accurate.  We are a country
of 250 million.  Why in Hell do people keep emigrating here?
I wouldn't want to live in such a place!  Would you?

>> Of the major industrial nations, the U.S. is:
>>
>> #1 in infant mortality
>> #1 in death of children under 5

--This is complicated and has partly to do with women who don't
seek medical care even when it is available.  One of my doctoral
students studied the problem and found that it didn't have to do
with access, cost, or availability of care, but more to do with
a mistrust of doctors, New Age philosophy, and lack of knowledge
of the importance of prenatal care.

>> #1 in preschoolers NOT fully immunized

--Again, immunizations are free and readily available.  I don't
understand this one, but I'll take your word that it is true.

>> #1 in low birthweight babies

--This is a function of the high numbers of teen-agers giving birth,
I suspect.

>> #1 in cesarean sections per 100 births (about 25% more than Canada,
>>     which is #2)

--Sure.  Too many doctors who believe it is necessary.  Canada, too.

>> #1 in beef consumption per capita

--Yeah!  And very good beef it is, too.

>> #1 in coronary bypass operations

--Because in many countries, they are not offered as often.  Sweden,
for example, doesn't provide them for people over 70.  We do.

>> #1 in junk food consumption
>> #2 in cigarette consumption (after Japan) per capita lowest in
>>     teacher salary per capita GDP

--Well, I don't like junk food, either, and I don't smoke cigarettes.
But remember, I was a teacher and I don't think I did too badly.  It's
indoor work and there's no heavy lifting.

>> #1 in billionaires

--Really?

>> #1 in children & elderly living in poverty

--I doubt this about the elderly.  Very few of our elderly live in poverty.
About 3%.  As for the children, it's probably true that 20% of our children
are poor.

>> #1 in real per capita GDP

--Good for us!

>> #1 in unequal distribution of wealth

--Probably true, and I think that this is a serious problem even if
Greg Grose does not.

>> #1 in homelessness

--Well, this is a spurious claim, but I don't want to take the space
to debate it.  In fact, I won't debate any of this, or I will receive
the wrath of Joe Pannon.  Let's skip to the end.
>>
>> "America is becoming a land of private greed and public squalor.  This
>>    book is an indispensable road map through the wreckage.  The facts
>>    it  reveals will startle you.  They may depress you.  But ideally
>>    they'll  fire you up to help rebuild this nation."

--This is Carter's....er, Clinton's Robert B. Reich?  Do tell.  Why
doesn't he emigrate if it's so bad?  Why does he remain in a cushy
job in Washington?  I'd move to the Isle of Skye if I were he.

In short, this is a carefully selected set of statistics.  While they
may be true, they do not present a rounded picture of the country.  If
they did, there would be boatloads of people trying to get to Cuba,
or Viet Nam.  Or Manchester.

Charles

Where can I get a list of Internet Providers in Budapest, or the entire world
for that matter? Is there a WWW site that keeps this kind of information up to
date?

Thanks

@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@

                Kedves bit.listserv.hungary Magyar testverek:
                         Kivanok mindnyajatoknak
             Kellemes Karacsonyi Unepeket es Boldog Uj Esztendot!

                             *  /\
                               /  \
                              /    \
                                ][                   Gal, Charles

          @~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@~@
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

ibokor wrote:

>the truth of the matter is that the modern hungarians are quite a
>mixed people --- as indeed most other populations in europe --- and
>their forebears are mostly very much johnny-come-latelies in that
>particular region of the world.

But there are still people who 'look' like Magyars, and thus have a
strong Magyar identity, just as Slavs look different than Italians,
creating strong identities for those groups.  There is a matter
of person identity through family history, and roots, which goes
hand-in-hand with whether someone 'looks' Polish, or French, or
Greek.  That all peoples are of mixed ethnic ancestry, with
some small influences from other groups, is not a convincing
argument for losing the ethnic identity that still remains.  Do
you condemn people who are proud of the achievement of their
ancestors, and cast aside that identification as worthless?  Is
Henry Ford 3rd not to be proud of his grandfather, a pride he
has for no other reason than his biological relationship with
that ancestor?  Henry Ford 3rd should not act superior to the
rest of us because of that relationship, but it is still a
source of pride.

>you don't have to go very far from the centre of budapest to see
>ample
>evidence of civilisations there some thousand years (as an order of
>magnitude) before the first ofthe hordes arrived from asia.

That may be true, but those civilisations were long gone when the
Magyars arrived.  Even if that were not the case, you cannot justify
destroying a civilisation because they settled an area at a time
when force, rather than right and wrong, was the accepted way of doing
business.  Today we accept negotiation, and the rights of the weak, so
conquest is no longer an acceptable way of doing business.  If you
argue that any civilization which had prospered 500-1000 years ago from
conquests, now must accept cultural destruction by immigration or by
evacuation, few nations today would be spared.  Why not preserve what
ethnic identity we have left, as we preserve ruins in museaums to
help identify who we are, rather than discarding it, like some old
scratched up Ming vase or worn out graffiti on the ceiling of the
Sistine chapel, certainly not worth saving since it is not perfect
any more.

Having a multiethnic planet is a good thing - why not value it?

Paul

 wrote:

: ...the meals on Christmas Eve were typically fish or some other non-meat
  dish,...

: As far as the "krampusz"... his role was to
: threaten the little ones if their behavior got out of line during the visit
: by Mikulas on December 6th, St. Nicholas' day...

: Christmas Eve usually ended by the grownups and older children going to
: midnight mass.  The next day was spent visiting or entertaining relatives and
: friends.

: The Chritmas tree was usually taken down on January 6 (Vizkereszt = Epiphany
: = 3 Kings' day = 12th day of Christmas?), the official end of the Christmas
: season.

: Ferenc Novak
> =============================================================================

It's nice to see this sort of recollection here on line.  I was born in
Canada, but we (my family) celebrate Christmas in much the same way.  A few
differences are: Jezuska didn't bring the presents (I think), but rather
the angel did (Jezuska gave the order and controlled the means of production
as well as distribution); I recall eating duck but not goose (probably
because my mother only likes geese in Hungary, but not here).  Otherwise,
it is pretty much the same.

I am so thankful to my mother for raising me as a Magyar even in Canada...

Charles Gal
University of Alberta
Canada
-------------------------------------end of post------------------------

The only commercial Internet provider I know of is ODIN Kft. )
in Budapest.  I do know that Sztaki provides access as well.  Sztaki
would be the equivalent of BARRNET or SURANET in the United States, which
provide access to universities and research ionstitutins.  ODIN Kft is a
commercial prvider with its own connection separate from SZTAKI.

ODIN is building its own Hungarian backbone, so it will in the future
have local dial in numbers in other cities.

SZTAKI is affiliated with EUNET, the largest Internet provider in
Europe.  Since it was a monopoly for a long time, sort of like EUNET was,
it has incredibly high prices.

Zoli )


On Tue, 20 Dec 1994, Lester Vecsey wrote:

> Where can I get a list of Internet Providers in Budapest, or the entire world
> for that matter? Is there a WWW site that keeps this kind of information up t
o
> date?
>
> Thanks
>

>Let me repeat it, I was sarcastic. If I said this in earnest I might not be
>an antisemite, but I would repeat a generalization based on stereotypes,


Woops - I didn't get it.  Sorry about that Eva.

>According to Paul:
>>The Jewish Antidefimation League (JDL) would call this antisemitism, since
>>you
>>again label Jews with the stereotypical label of 'excellent businessmen'.

AND

>Let me repeat it, I was sarcastic. If I said this in earnest I might not be
>an antisemite, but I would repeat a generalization based on stereotypes,
>which is simply untenable. I have many Jewish friends who have less business

My point was that, most P.C. folks would gasp at such as assertion, but
stereotypes can be accurate.  All people of some group do not have to have
some trait for a stereotype of that trait to be accurate.  As with
statistics, the stereotype shows that among this group, this trait
occurs more often than in the general population (any trait, and any
group - I am not speaking of this case specifically).  Some folks find
the application of mathamatics to people outragous, but like it or
not, it can apply if used correctly.  This is how insurance companies
calculate rates, right?  A white male in his 50's is more likely to have
a heart attack than a white female in her 50's, therefore he pays more
for health insurance.  But George Burn's smokes, drinks, and has lived
to be more than 90 years old.  Is he being discriminated against? No.
Statistics!  The relevant issue is, whether the stereotype is accurate,
and not whether some find it insulting.  Russians are heavier drinkers
than te Japanese - they may find this fact offensive, but it is accurate.
Statistics!

Paul

a giant wave in japanese.


On Tue, 20 Dec 1994, Eva Durant wrote:

> what is tsunami?
>

It was nice to see people recollections of Christmas in Hungary - this is
how an understanding of our culture is passed down, from you old folks
to us young turks, uh, Magyars.

Paul

a giant wave in japanese, often the after effect of underwater quakes.


On Tue, 20 Dec 1994, Eva Durant wrote:

> what is tsunami?
>

Re:

>the truth of the matter is that the modern hungarians are quite a
>mixed people --- as indeed most other populations in europe --- and
>their forebears are mostly very much johnny-come-latelies in that
>particular region of the world.

Is the Danube less of a Danube down at the Iron Gate than up at Passau?
In that span more water flowed into it from other rivers than it carried
at the German-Austrian border.

Danubius

=Of special interest would be information like the Hungarian name for Santa
=Claus, whether he is the same kind of fellow we know (round and happy),
=whether there is a Santa's workshop or otherwise how all the toys are made,
=are there reindeer and a sleigh (or how else does Santa travel);
All this is an American development from Thomas Nast the cartoonist and Clement
Clarke Moore s infamous poem "A visit from St. Nicholas" (Moore greatlie
regretted it, for he was a theologian and wishd to be rememberd for that,
not his St. Nicholas!).  Both of them were NewYorkers, and therefore heir to
the Dutch Sinter Klaas, who was tall, thin, and quite dour, as all the St.
Nicholases were, except the English Father Christmas.

With all this said, the Hungarian is "Mikula's" (the stroke belongs over the
"a", not beside it), a variant of "Miklo's", Hungarish for "Nicholas".  He
cums on Dec 6 (St. Nicholas s feast dai, and namedai for "Miklo's"), with a
chaind devvil, the Krampusz, and has little sweets for good childer and
switches for the bad.  In our hous--I was born in Budapest, but when quite
young was brought to New Jersey--I alwais got both sweets and switches in my
shoes that were left in the window.  All this is quite widespread European,
esp. German, custom.

=are there special customs to celebrate the day (or night, or
=week) before Christmas, as well as Christmas Day; are there any special
=costumes or apparel that is traditional to wear in Hungary at Christmas
=time; are there are any special religious traditions or celebrations in
=connection with celebrating the birth of Christ; is there any type of food
=or drink that Hungarians make or use to celebrate Christmas, and what are
=they (any recipes that we could try would also be appreciated); and are
=there any special songs or music that Hungarians associate with Christmas?

I underscor that that which I know is from parts of Hungarie under strong
German influens.  My father is from Budapest s middle class, and thereby under
German influens, and my mother from the west, and thereby under German
influens.  Most of that which I write can be seen in the erlie parts of a filmd
verzion of "the Nutracker", when Uncle Drosselmeyer shows up on Christmas Eve.

Throughout Advent one cooks and bakes for Christmas, such things as will last
until then: not gingerbread, which servs the same end, but hunniecake and the
like, that is hard when baked and softens with time.  On Christmas Eve the tree
is raizd and trimmd, with candles, glitter, sweets and bits of real food--a
Hungarish neighbor of ours hung also apples--, in darkness the gifts are laid
under the tree, and all sit, properlie dressd, for the Christmas dinner.  This
beginns the eating of the food that has been made, but it nonetheless is
restricted, for it is the eve, or vigil, of a holie dai, when formerlie the
Catholic Church obzervd a partial fast.  After the dinner, the tree is lit, and
all sing a few Christmas songs, and then set to to the gifts and the eats on
the tree.  Then midnight Mass, or erlie on Christmas dai.  No gift is exchanged
until Christmas Eve, or, if erlier receivd, opend until then.  On Jan 6, the
Epiphanie, the tree is taken doun and Christmas ends.

Where here gifts are brought by Santa Claus, in this tradition the Christ
Child ("kis Je'zuska") brings them, and there is no traditional emphasis on
plaithings.  (In German, "Christ Child" is "Christkindl", wherefrom our "Kris
Kringle".)

When my mother was young, she partook in the Christmas plai, that was plaid
by childer 7 to 13 years old.  This is no more than the last bits of an
old, widespread tradition that I know almost nothing of, not even when it
happens--Christmas or its eve.  In the past it was found all over Hungarie,
and maibe elswhere, too, and adults partook in it.  In particular, the
Szekler (Sze'kely) Christmas plai is well known.
                             -*-**-*-**-
"Let up; we never done you no harm"  -- beleaguerd shopkeeper
s respons to John H Patterson s direct-mail blitzkrieg

MET--HUNGARIAN ELECTRONIC EXCHANGE--(Magyar Elektronikus T=93zsde)---MET
=3D-=3D-=3DELECTRONIC JOURNAL  HU ISSN 1216-0229 =3D-=3D-=3D-=3D copyright =
1990.
-kulugyi szilveszteri elozetes...
 =20
  Dr.Kovacs Laszlo kulugyminiszter osszefoglaloja
- Az ev legfontosabb kulugyi eredmenyeinek elere helyezte a tarca
vezetoje a tarsult orszagok kulugyminisztereivel folyo kozos
megbeszeleseket, majd az Esseni Csucsertekezleten torteno reszvetel.=20
  Eldolt a kerdes europai integracionkat erinto legfontosabb
pontokban. Igy abban, hogy  a tarsult orszagokat be kell vonni a
folyamatba. Az esseni csucson elhataroztak, hogy ezutan rendszeresen
evi egy csucsertekezletet, es evi ket kulugyminiszteri ertekezletet
tartanak majd, es itt rendszeresen bevonjak a tarsult orszagokat a
munkaba.  =20
  Konzultativ lehetoseget kapott Magyarorszag a kozos kulugyi=20
folyamatokban, es a kozos bel es biztonsagpolitikaban a korabbi=20
maastrichti megallapodas 2. es 3, pillerje alapjan. =20
  Biztos jelzes erkezett a tobb eves gazdasagi tervezhetoseg
segiteserol, es pl. a beruhazasi limitet kolcsonosen felelmeltek
15-rol 25 szazalekra.=20
Megtortent a dontes, hogy megkezdodhetnek a kozvetlen kozos
targyalasok a csatlakozashoz. Elfogadtak Magyarorszag azon felveteset,
hogy a felvetel lepcsozetesen tortenhet majd, az elert eredmenyek
sorrendjeben. =20
  Immar VISSZAVONHATATLANNA VALT Europa egyesitese, noha sem az
elso csatlakozok, sem pedig a hataridok meg nem josolhatok.
  A NATO csatlakozas elosegiteset mindenkeppen jol szolgalja a
Partnerseg a Bekehez Programm. A Clinton beszed, majd az Eszak-atlanti
Tanacs, tehat kulugyminiszteri ertekezlet nem tette ketsegesse a NATO
kiboviteset.=20
  Az EU tagsg eseteben MO-nak ngyobb eselye van arra, hogy
befolyasolja, mikor lehetunk EU tagok, de NATO tagasagunkhoz
egyszerubb az ut. MO egysegeben kezeli a ket ugyet.=20
Kitekintve orvendetes, es mozgasterunket is noveli, hogy rendezodott
a kozel-keleti bekefolyamatok ugye.=20
Az EEBE csucson megteremtettek a januartol szervezette alalkulo
intezmenyrendszer, az EBESZ alapjait. Magyarorszag kapta a soros elnoki
tisztet.  Iden megszuletett a pelda az EEBE -jauartol EEBSZ cselekvesi
lehetosegeire is, hogy pl. Oroszorszagban a karabachi valsag EEBE
szervezessel, vezetessel, orosz szakertok bevonasaval, de idegen
csapatok bevonasaval rendezodik.
   A helyzet, mint mindenhol, bonyolult. Kontinensunkon, Europaban
egyutt van a haboru es beke, egyidejuleg atjarhatok es nehezen
atjarhato a hatarok. =20
Fontos megjegyezni a delszlav valsag kapcsan, hogy a sikertelenseg nem az=
=20
EEBE, hanem a helyzet kudarca. Ez valsaghelyzet mindenkeppen megoldando
 -nemzetkozi egyuttmukodessel-, hiszen rossz precedens lenne, hogy eroszak
alaklmazasaval teruletet lehet szerezni Europaban.
 (Tanulsag 1,megelozes, valsag kiszelesedhet, 2.nemeztisegi, kisebbsegi
helyzetre figyelni kell).
  Eredmenyek: NATO fotitkarral ket honap alatt 4 talalkozo, EU
jelenlegi es jovo evi vezetoivel is sikerult egyertelmuve tenni
csatlakozasi szandekunkat.=20
Magyarorszag es szomszedai ugyeben attores nem volt, de a kapcsolatok
rendezese eredmenyesen folyik. Magyar-Szlovak es Magyar-Roman=20
viszonylatban is.
Folynak a szakertoi targyalasok. A ketoldalu alapszerzodesben Romanianak eg=
y
reszletes, minden mondataban nemzetkozi peldakkal, jogi elemekkel
alatamasztott alapszerzodes szovegtervezetet adtak at. Benne
egyertelmuek a magyar elkepzelesek.
 A hatarontuli magyarsagban erthetoen vannak meg ellenerzesek, de sok
talalkozas soran igyekeznek megdonteni, hogy ugyanaugy segito szandeku
a tarca es a kormany, mint eddig- hangoztatta a tarca vezetoje, de mas=20
eszkozokkel, es modszerekkel.=20
Ket kisebbsegvedelmi dokumentum is megszuletett, de ebben nem volna
tisztesseges tagadni, hogy az elozo kormany elokeszito munkajan alapult.
   Zavartalan volt a tarca egyuttmukodese a koztarsasagi elnokkel, akivel
osszehangolt munka folyt. Erre pelda a magyar-francia kapcsolatokkal,
hogy mig a miniszterelnok elso utja Nemetorszagba, a koztarsasagi elnok
eslo utja Francia-orszgba vezetett, majd oda is elment a miniszterelnok.
   Fontosnak, es eredmenyesnek itelte meg kulugyminiszterunk a Parlament
Kulugyi Bizottsagaval torteno egyuttmukodest. A parlamenti partok nelkul
nem szulethet dontes, noha nincs teljes konszcenzus.=20
   A koalicios vezetes a Kulugyminiszteriumban harmonikusan megvalosult.
                              ORCZAN, Csaba Sandor
*********************************************************************
Free service, but all contributions are welcome.  /Dijmenteskiadvany,
de kosz=94nettel fogadjuk a t=A0mogat=A0ast Publisher/
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MET--HUNGARIAN ELECTRONIC EXCHANGE--(Magyar Elektronikus T=93zsde)---MET
=3D-=3D-=3DELECTRONIC JOURNAL  HU ISSN 1216-0229 =3D-=3D-=3D-=3D copyright =
1990.
-kulugyi szilveszteri elozetes...
 =20
  Dr.Kovacs Laszlo kulugyminiszter osszefoglaloja
- Az ev legfontosabb kulugyi eredmenyeinek elere helyezte a tarca
vezetoje a tarsult orszagok kulugyminisztereivel folyo kozos
megbeszeleseket, majd az Esseni Csucsertekezleten torteno reszvetel.=20
  Eldolt a kerdes europai integracionkat erinto legfontosabb
pontokban. Igy abban, hogy  a tarsult orszagokat be kell vonni a
folyamatba. Az esseni csucson elhataroztak, hogy ezutan rendszeresen
evi egy csucsertekezletet, es evi ket kulugyminiszteri ertekezletet
tartanak majd, es itt rendszeresen bevonjak a tarsult orszagokat a
munkaba.  =20
  Konzultativ lehetoseget kapott Magyarorszag a kozos kulugyi=20
folyamatokban, es a kozos bel es biztonsagpolitikaban a korabbi=20
maastrichti megallapodas 2. es 3, pillerje alapjan. =20
  Biztos jelzes erkezett a tobb eves gazdasagi tervezhetoseg
segiteserol, es pl. a beruhazasi limitet kolcsonosen felelmeltek
15-rol 25 szazalekra.=20
Megtortent a dontes, hogy megkezdodhetnek a kozvetlen kozos
targyalasok a csatlakozashoz. Elfogadtak Magyarorszag azon felveteset,
hogy a felvetel lepcsozetesen tortenhet majd, az elert eredmenyek
sorrendjeben. =20
  Immar VISSZAVONHATATLANNA VALT Europa egyesitese, noha sem az
elso csatlakozok, sem pedig a hataridok meg nem josolhatok.
  A NATO csatlakozas elosegiteset mindenkeppen jol szolgalja a
Partnerseg a Bekehez Programm. A Clinton beszed, majd az Eszak-atlanti
Tanacs, tehat kulugyminiszteri ertekezlet nem tette ketsegesse a NATO
kiboviteset.=20
  Az EU tagsg eseteben MO-nak ngyobb eselye van arra, hogy
befolyasolja, mikor lehetunk EU tagok, de NATO tagasagunkhoz
egyszerubb az ut. MO egysegeben kezeli a ket ugyet.=20
Kitekintve orvendetes, es mozgasterunket is noveli, hogy rendezodott
a kozel-keleti bekefolyamatok ugye.=20
Az EEBE csucson megteremtettek a januartol szervezette alalkulo
intezmenyrendszer, az EBESZ alapjait. Magyarorszag kapta a soros elnoki
tisztet.  Iden megszuletett a pelda az EEBE -jauartol EEBSZ cselekvesi
lehetosegeire is, hogy pl. Oroszorszagban a karabachi valsag EEBE
szervezessel, vezetessel, orosz szakertok bevonasaval, de idegen
csapatok bevonasaval rendezodik.
   A helyzet, mint mindenhol, bonyolult. Kontinensunkon, Europaban
egyutt van a haboru es beke, egyidejuleg atjarhatok es nehezen
atjarhato a hatarok. =20
Fontos megjegyezni a delszlav valsag kapcsan, hogy a sikertelenseg nem az=
=20
EEBE, hanem a helyzet kudarca. Ez valsaghelyzet mindenkeppen megoldando
 -nemzetkozi egyuttmukodessel-, hiszen rossz precedens lenne, hogy eroszak
alaklmazasaval teruletet lehet szerezni Europaban.
 (Tanulsag 1,megelozes, valsag kiszelesedhet, 2.nemeztisegi, kisebbsegi
helyzetre figyelni kell).
  Eredmenyek: NATO fotitkarral ket honap alatt 4 talalkozo, EU
jelenlegi es jovo evi vezetoivel is sikerult egyertelmuve tenni
csatlakozasi szandekunkat.=20
Magyarorszag es szomszedai ugyeben attores nem volt, de a kapcsolatok
rendezese eredmenyesen folyik. Magyar-Szlovak es Magyar-Roman=20
viszonylatban is.
Folynak a szakertoi targyalasok. A ketoldalu alapszerzodesben Romanianak eg=
y
reszletes, minden mondataban nemzetkozi peldakkal, jogi elemekkel
alatamasztott alapszerzodes szovegtervezetet adtak at. Benne
egyertelmuek a magyar elkepzelesek.
 A hatarontuli magyarsagban erthetoen vannak meg ellenerzesek, de sok
talalkozas soran igyekeznek megdonteni, hogy ugyanaugy segito szandeku
a tarca es a kormany, mint eddig- hangoztatta a tarca vezetoje, de mas=20
eszkozokkel, es modszerekkel.=20
Ket kisebbsegvedelmi dokumentum is megszuletett, de ebben nem volna
tisztesseges tagadni, hogy az elozo kormany elokeszito munkajan alapult.
   Zavartalan volt a tarca egyuttmukodese a koztarsasagi elnokkel, akivel
osszehangolt munka folyt. Erre pelda a magyar-francia kapcsolatokkal,
hogy mig a miniszterelnok elso utja Nemetorszagba, a koztarsasagi elnok
eslo utja Francia-orszgba vezetett, majd oda is elment a miniszterelnok.
   Fontosnak, es eredmenyesnek itelte meg kulugyminiszterunk a Parlament
Kulugyi Bizottsagaval torteno egyuttmukodest. A parlamenti partok nelkul
nem szulethet dontes, noha nincs teljes konszcenzus.=20
   A koalicios vezetes a Kulugyminiszteriumban harmonikusan megvalosult.
                              ORCZAN, Csaba Sandor
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