In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>That's the point, Sam.  Now, if you'd ease up on the Prozac, and read, or
>re-read, parts of Nietzsche, you'd understand why he wrote, "So long as
you
>are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that
of
>another".
>
>Joe Szalai

You taking a lead from Nietzsche -- now there's a scary thought. I say
this at the risk of confusing you, but there's a difference between being
truly original and strikingly different in an intellectual sense and just
being a contrarian. The degree to which you are able to shock or anger
others is no measure of the former quality. It is, however, the sine qua
non of the latter. I still give you points for originality and humor.
Sam Stowe

Eva wrote:

> As most of you by now know the MDF (Magyar Demokrata Forum) split into two.
> The populist, nationalist wing remained within the MDF, and the more
> moderate, conservative wing left and formed its own party. During the
> stormy meeting which elected Lezsak as head of the party, the following
> incident occurred:

(Rest of very interting message deleted)


Eva, could you (or anyone else who has been following events) provide a
summary of the issues/events leading up the MDF split? All I have seen
are a couple of brief pices in the OMRI report.

Thanks,
Heather Olsen

Guess who showed up in our campus tonight! :-) Pat Buchanan had a stop at UT
on his campaign tour (or whatever it is) in Ohio. I was lucky enough to get
into the auditorium, there was quite big crowd. I have never seen so many
policemen and 'drotosfulut' ( Huge, well-dressed guy with a thin wire
connecting his ear to his jacket, and mirecoulusly they are always there where
 the problem is. :-)) There were a few people shouting in and interupting
Buchanan. I guess they were from the local gay association, however I did not
hear clearly what they shout and also the 'drotosfulu's appeared very quickly
at the scene. And what Buchanan told, whoa, he is quite successfully approachin
g
the level of our Torgyan. I think it would be a complet disaster if he were
elected, at least in economical sense. He would probably launch a trade-war
against Japan, East-Asia, and everybody.

Janos Zsargo

I sure do not, but I would also be very interested as it would make
writing to my relatives in Hungary soo much easier.

part 7.

Eventually the Technical Group arrived in Toronto on January 21 and was
temporarily housed in an old mansion on Jarvis Street. The Government of
Ontario originally made the old Mulock House on Jarvis Street available
but, much to the public dismay and private delight of Pickersgill, the
refugees were soon told by Ontario authorities to vacate the premises. The
federal liberals could now score against the  Ontario conservatives.
Chorley Park was made available by the federal government. "Every Canadian
concerned for the future of this country should be
pleased that we were able to attract these promising young people who are
already well on the way to the completion of technical training so badly
needed at this time for our national development...Every Liberal ought to
be proud that when  the provincial government turned out the students the
feds fixed the situation," wrote the minister to a Liberal friend in
Toronto.  When one of his Immigration superintendents asked that the
students' pocket money be increased from the weekly one dollar to two
dollars to allow for carfare, the ministry wrote back that it has been
decided that Immigration should not become involved in the provision of
spending money to these refugee students.  Civil servants had their own
agenda; the  safeguarding of the purse. Ignorant of the political
bickering, the students attended their English language courses. On
completion of the programme each took a proficiency test. The results
determined whether or not they had mastered English sufficiently to be able
to continue with their studies at the University. The University of Toronto
secured summer employment for them and the admission procedures began. The
Geodesy students were accepted in Civil-Engineering with a loss of one or
two years, while the Geology and Mining students lost one year
respectively.

        Language difficulties and the different Canadian teaching methods
made immediate success impossible. For example, only one of the third year
students in Civil Engineering was able to complete his academic year in
1957/58. The others failed but returned the next fall to graduate by  1961.
Other Hungarian refugee students, that is, those who were not from the
University of Sopron, had similar experiences.

        The majority of the non-Sopron Hungarian refugee students were
brought at first to Montreal. These students numbered more than the Sopron
Groups. They came from various faculties of the Hungarian universities.
Amongst them were a few students without any post-secondary background. In
contrast to the Soproners, most of them were eager to continue their
studies in English, preferring English-language universities. They were
counting on the perceived support of Canada but were willing to work until
classes started. Meanwhile, they wanted to learn English quickly. Some,
mostly those who came from Budapest, had a basic knowledge of English.
Pickersgill's office offered all prompt help.

        The Department of Immigration planned to scatter these students to
the university cities of Hamilton, Kingston, Guelph, Fredericton, Edmonton,
Saskatoon, Winnipeg, Quebec City and London. In no instance were more than
twenty-five students destined for any one location. Federal financial aid
was to be of limited duration lasting from three to four months. As of May
31, 1957, these refugees were no longer eligible for special assistance,
except for the regular assistance that was made available to all
immigrants. During the period of maintenance i.e., until May 31, 1957, the
universities were to provide the refugee students with intensive English
language courses and lectures on Canada.   Eventually, the Department of
Immigration accepted the responsibility for placing these students in
summer employment but was not able to keep their promise due to a slowdown
in the economy during the summer of 1957.

        On February 1, 1957, the Hungarian Refugee Students' Center of the
National Conference of Canadian Universities began to operate in Montreal.
Eventually, 658 students registered with the Center. Two weeks earlier the
first 50 of an anticipated total number of 400 students arrived at Dorval
airport and were housed at the Immigration Hostel in St. Paul l'Hermite, 14
miles from Montreal. At the end of the month they were gradually moved to
another Immigration building, a former jail, at 1162 St. Antoine Street in
Montreal. The students received $5 at Dorval and another $5 from the
Hungarian Relief Society which together with the International Rescue
Committee and the Canadian Red Cross Society became supporters of the
Center at St. Antoine St. The students were ill prepared for the Canadian
winter. Few had any possessions when they arrived. A limited amount of new
clothing was provided but most of the aid took the form of used clothing
collected from the people of Montreal.  The students began to attend
English classes at the St James United Church and later at other church
halls. More students arrived. They landed at Dorval on January 16 and 20,
=46ebruary 15, 21, 23, March 25 and 29 and May 14,  in total 450. The "jail"
became overcrowded. Some of the students left and found low-paying jobs and
rented accommodations. The majority stayed. They received $2 weekly while
the money lasted. The Department of Immigration then obtained from L'Aide
aux R=E9fugi=E9s Hongrois, additional accommodations at 2450 St. Antoine
Street, where a group of about 50 students was sent.   By June 1957 the
Center had interviewed 540 students,  completed their documentation, and
entered into correspondence on their behalf with the Canadian universities.
In February, McGill opened its own shelter, the Pet=F6fi House, for Hungaria=
n
refugee students.

        McGill made  three houses on MacTavish Street, recently bought from
the Red Cross,  residences for Hungarian refugee students until August 15,
1957. The Board of Governors at McGill, acting in co-operation with the
Government of Canada and the National Conference of Canadian Universities,
made available the premises at  3416-20-26 MacTavish Street to serve as
hostels for Hungarian student refugees. A small committee under the
chairmanship of Senator Hartland Molson worked out the details. Petofi
House, as the new residence was named after the famous Hungarian poet
S=E1ndor Pet=F6fi, received furniture loaned by the Department of National
Defence. Dr. E. Clifford Knowles, Chaplain and Student Counsellor, was
placed in charge. Mrs. Frederick Smith, affectionately called the
"countess", was appointed by an N.C.C.U. Liaison Officer. Intensive English
courses organized by N.C.C.U. were partly financed by the International
Refugee Committee. Additional accommodation for female students was found
at the YWCA with the help of the Travellers Aid Society.   By the middle of
March, 68 students had been sent to Pet=F6fi House.  At the Pet=F6fi House
students attended language classes 24 hours a week and received $25 a month
pocket money until May 31 when the government reduced the daily emergency
allowance and issued it only to those students who were unable to obtain
employment. During its period of operation, until mid-August 1957,  Pet=F6fi
House hosted 204 residents.  Unfortunately, some of the students were
stranded at St. Paul l'Ermite, at least 100 in April, and a few at the St.
Antoine Street reception center "for whom nothing has been done," commented
Chaplain Knowles.

        Various university delegations descended on Montreal to select
Hungarian students. Dean Ian MacDonald, Chairman of the National
Scholarship Committee of the World University Service of Canada chose
twenty students to fill available places.   By mid-March of 1957 the World
University Service of Canada (W.U.S.C.) had processed a meagre sixty-eight
applications from the 300 Hungarian student refugees in Montreal.
=46orty-four students were given assurances of full or partial scholarships
immediately or in the near future provided they met the academic standards.
The universities agreed to house the students, provide English
instructions and aid in the finding of summer employment -- on condition
the federal government cover most of the expenses involved. McGill offered
to take 140 students. The University of Montreal was ready to accommodate
fifty-two Hungarians, the Universities of Western Ontario, Ontario
Agricultural College, New Brunswick, McMaster, and Alberta promised to take
twenty-five each. Queen's invited twenty-eight. Laval University wished to
host seven students.

                Senator H. de M. Molson whose  wife was of Hungarian
origin, offered Pickersgill to help  the students. The minister informed
the senator what had been done to date by Vancouver and Toronto and
remarked how nice it would be if the same could be said about Montreal. He
wrote:

I have been wondering whether you would consider trying to organize a
Committee in Montreal with a view to raising privately some financial aid
for these students....We need educated people as every industrialist knows,
and here we have a chance to get some at almost bargain rates. But it is
something the federal Government cannot tackle directly, and I am awfully
afraid it is not going to  be done very well if it is just left to the
universities and to haphazard benevolence.

Molson promised to  contact Dr. Cyril James of McGill, and pull all
interested parties together.   Molson and Cyril James they made a general
plan.   They notes that while Hungarian refugees as a group were important,
and a great deal needed to be done in working out a satisfactory scheme for
their reception, it was probable that the comparatively small group of
students was among the most important element in the whole problem. They
noted, that these were selected individuals in Hungary, with greater than
average ability, who were likely to be of greater importance to Canada, or
to the future of Hungary, than the remainder of the refugee group. By the
same token, since they were highly intelligent and sensitive, this group
was apt to become more easily embittered because of the unsatisfactory
situation they had found themselves. In their opinion the first job was to
provide high quality English language classes. Humanities students should
continue study during the first summer rather than waste time in low paying
summer employment that would not prove  beneficial to a quick adjustment to
Canadian life. They wanted the federal government to make a financial
contribution. They also suggested that the Canadian universities remit
tuition  fees of qualified students while the N.C.C.U. should provide
bursaries for each school year, until the completion of degrees. For the
required 1/4 million dollars needed to support 500 Hungarian refugee
students they suggested a nation-wide campaign. Senator Molson initiated a
fund raising campaign. Orientation sessions were to be organized to provide
information about other universities. Some students were eventually
expected to seek summer employment, particularly the engineering and the
technology students; others were to be given summer courses.  The
Molson-James plan, probably the ideal solution to the Hungarian student
problem, was never realized. There was not enough private or public
support. Not many people understood the visions of Pickersgill, Molson, and
James.

        The University of Western Ontario responded halfheartedly to
Pickersgill's invitation to support the Hungarian refugee student movement.
The Dean of the Faculty of Medicine asked for federal money but since
education in Canada has been always a provincial responsibility Pickersgill
suggested a partnership of university and industries to absorb costs for
the majority of the Hungarian students.   A committee (Joint University
Committee) representing faculty and students at the university met with Mr.
Vince of the Department of Immigration and Mrs. Poole of the Hungarian
Refugee Committee in London to discuss the suggestion of bringing a number
of Hungarian students to London, Ontario. The first committee promised to
find accommodation for 25, the second pledged to find jobs. The Joint
University Committee engaged to provide some social life, and the English
Department language courses. Scholarships were promised for the best five
students. The rest were to fend for themselves.

        The University of Alberta agreed to take twenty-five Hungarian
refugee students provided that Pickersgill paid $3 per diem for each of
them. The university promised to find summer jobs for them but refused to
commit itself to admitting a single one of the students in September. They
soon changed their minds and told federal authorities that students should
find work for themselves. The Department of Education of Alberta refused to
contribute a cent to the cost of English courses for the refugees. Laval
=46ortier complained to his minister: "Alberta's attitude to citizenship and
language classes has not been very progressive."  Eventually, Pickersgill
sent $2,950 to cover half the cost of these courses.

        Next, Pickersgill received a communication from McMaster University
of Hamilton, Ontario, explaining what they  planed to do for the
twenty-five students they agreed to accommodate at federal expense. They
promised to secure accommodations for them at private homes and organized
English courses  at a local high school as long as Ottawa paid for these
expenses. Hamilton showed little generosity.

This University can make no present undertaking to receive any or all of
this particular group next fall. This University is not at the moment
prepared to promise waiver of fees for the coming year for any Hungarian
students beyond the three already in our midst preparing for university
entrance next autumn. Our undergraduates will not be in a situation or a
mood to do very much for these Hungarian students at this time of year.

The University of New Brunswick offered to accept fifteen students on a
temporary basis after they found a single volunteer, Dr. T.H. Weiner, who
volunteered to tutor them.  The University of Ottawa had found place for
eleven students by May 1957. After the collapse of the plans for the
Technical Group, the University of Manitoba offered space for eleven male
students but, as others, the university also emphasized that it could make
no commitment on their entry to regular classes in September.

        By March 1957 Pickersgill realized that funds available for
Hungarian refugee students were very limited and, as a result, a quarter to
a half of the students invited to Canada to continue their studies would be
unable to resume their studies in the fall of 1957. He decided to turn to
the American Ford Foundation. He asked Pearson to  request a scholarship of
$500 for each of the 250 to 500 students. Pearson scribbled on the margin
of Pickersgill's note: "they could give a 1/4 million."   Pearson then
wrote to the Ford Foundation pleading for aid for 250 Hungarian students
who, he wrote, would not be able to continue their studies unless at least
$125,000 could be found, preferably a 1/4 million.  At this time the number
of students without support stood at 380, according to the Canadian
Director of Immigration.  The Ford Foundation responded with regret telling
Pearson that assistance of Hungarian students in Canada was not within the
terms of the Trustees' action. Scholarships were destined to Hungarian
students in Europe only.  There was no financial reason for Pearson to go
cap-in-hand to the Americans. The budget was balanced, the coffers of the
government were full. Canadian politicians could not and would not override
the public attitude of "rugged individualism."  Canadian students received
little aid themselves.

end of part 7.

Peter I. Hidas

Hungarian Studies
Department Of Russian and Slavic Studies
McGill University
Montreal, Quebec, Canada

conclusions


        There was a general air of depression and consternation among the
students when they arrived and when they were not met with the expected
scholarships and other aid. Public reaction had already set in; protests
were being received by universities and governments against granting
scholarships to foreign students before more scholarships were available
for Canadian students.  Consequently, Hungarian refugee students already in
Canada were not able to devote the summer of 1957 to prepare themselves for
university entry. Government funds ran out by June 1 and the students were
forced to seek employment to support themselves. For most Canadians this
arrangement seemed most natural because this was the way many Canadian
students financed their way through college. The search for jobs and  work
deprived most of the refugee students from receiving intensive language
training during the summer. Consequently, the majority of them, except for
the Forestry Group that received instructions in Hungarian, were
unsuccessful during the academic year 1957/58. The Forestry Group students
were also obliged to work. Some of them were able to find only part-time
work. Eighteen students were unable to find any work since the threat of a
lumber strike had curtailed practically all logging operations in British
Columbia and truly remunerative employment was hard to find in that
province.  McGill found jobs for 156 students but forty-four were without
employment  in mid-June. Most of the students in Kingston, Hamilton, Ottawa
and Winnipeg found some work.

        Besides  the two Sopron groups, 280 other Hungarian refugee
students were successful in registering at Canadian universities for the
academic year 1957/58. Of this number 215 received some type of financial
assistance. The refugees attended courses at thirty-four institutions of
higher learning. Altogether there were 1030 Hungarian refugee students in
Canada on January 1, 1958. Nine hundred and fifty-eight of these had been
surveyed as  previously attending schools in Hungary at the following
faculties:

Engineering     575     60%
Science 85      8.87%
Arts    61      6.61%
Commerce        48      5.01%
Medicine        53      5.60%
Agriculture     37      3.86%
Premedical-
dental  24      2.50%
veterinary      13      1.35%
others  26      2.70%
Graduate
 Studies        10      1.04%

could not prove
standing        26      2.71%

Half of all the students, 499, were not able to attend school in 1957. The
unfortunate unemployment situation in the winter of 1957/58 made it
difficult for many of these students to earn money to attend school in
1958/59. The most generous schools were McGill  and Sir George Williams
Universities in Montreal. The first accepted 74 students and provided
financial assistance for 70 of them while the second accepted 27 refugees
and found aid for 22. The two Sopron groups were aided by Toronto and the
University of British Columbia with generous contribution provided by the
federal government and industry. Complete scholarships, including free
tuition, board and lodging was offered to 40 students. For 64 the
universities waived the tuition completely. Free tuition and some financial
help were offered to 33 Hungarians, board and lodging and financial aid to
seven students. Bursaries, loans, meals, textbooks and instruments and
partial relief from tuition payment were offered to 312 of them. Sir George
Williams waived 22 tuition fees, McMaster postponed deadlines but
eventually collected. London, Ottawa  and McGill each gave seven  full
scholarships.   Most of the other students succeeded later on their own.
Hardly any repatriated. Now one can find them on the faculty  roster  of
almost all academic establishments.    Numerically, the Hungarian refugee
students had some impact on the enrollment rostrum of  Canadian
post-secondary educational institutions. The increase in enrollment from
1955/56  to 1956/57 amounted to 5,271. The difference between the 1956/57
and 1957/58 figures is 8,400. The half thousand Hungarian students fell
into this category. During the following two academic years the increases
were 7,900 and 7,600.

                In 1956 and early 1957 about 20% of the post-secondary
population of Hungary left for the West because of the Hungarian revolution
and the misrule in Hungary by the Muscovite communists. They were not only
welcomed because they were freedom fighters, l;which not all of them were,
but because they were highly educated individuals who could constitute an
asset  to any host country. European and overseas nations as well as the
United Kingdom agreed on the importance of this migration movement but
differed on the role the state should play in aiding the Hungarian refugee
students in the completion of their studies. For example West Germany, The
Netherlands and the Scandinavian countries offered the kinds of support the
Hungarians were accustomed to at home, that is, free education plus
room-and-board, if needed. Overseas countries, including  Canada, were
willing to provide the same support as they gave to ordinary immigrants and
to their own student population, letting charitable institutions and
generous individuals attend to the rest. Hungarian refugee student
contemplating their future in Austria and Yugoslavia were not aware of the
fundamental differences in national educational policies the Western
democracies. Most of them preferred to continue their studies overseas but
when European countries made tempting offers they responded. Canada
welcomed the students but the invitation was a delayed one.

                Most of the students left Hungary in the four weeks
following the defeat of the Hungarian revolution. During the month of
November 1956 the Canadian government showed little interest in the
Hungarian refugee movement. Only after his arrival in Vienna in early
December did the benefits of selecting highly educated refugees become
obvious  to Pickersgill. By that time many of the students had committed
elsewhere or had left. The British arrived early to pick the cream of the
crop. Nevertheless, Pickersgill with great energy managed to "acquire"
about 1,000 of the lot.  The forestry students and faculty, as a result of
Pickersgill's determined effort and despite local opposition, continued
their studies and work as an institution, a unique achievement at that time
in history. Most of the other students had to fend for themselves because
neither the federal government nor the provincial governments were willing
to provide aid to the Hungarians that they would not provide to Canadian
students. They had the financial means, healthy budgets and large
surpluses, but lacked the political will to challenge the views of the
general public. There were a few generous universities, student and various
organizations as well as individuals who provided partial or full
scholarships to some individuals but such support was also available to
gifted Canadian students. Students were expected to pay their way through
college. During the summer of 1957 the Hungarian refugee students worked
but the result was lack of proper language preparation for the 1957/58
academic year. Determination and diligence did get most of them into one or
another of Canadian institutions of higher learning. In 1956/57 there were
78100 students enrolled at Canadian universities. The number grew to 86,500
by 1957/58. One sixteenth of the increase in the student population was due
to the presence of the Hungarian refugee students. Many eventually made
their mark on Canadian intellectual life.
\

HUNGARIAN REFUGEE STUDENTS AT CANADIAN UNIVERSITIES 1957
University               accepted students       accepted with
                                                financial assistance
Acadia University                          1       1
University of Alberta                     18   13
Assumption University                  1       1
British Columbia                          23      11
    Sopron Forestry Group       193     193
Carleton        3       2
Dalhousie University                    4       2
Laval University                             2       2
University of Manitoba                 21      4
McGill University                         73      71
McMaster University                      7       7
University of Montreal                    6       6
Mount Allison University                1       1
University of New Brunswick          5       5
Nova Scotia Technical College     1       1
Ontario Agricultural College           1       -
University of Ottawa                        9       8
Queen's University                      12      12
St. Dunstan's College                    2       2
St. Francis Xavier                            4       4
St. Joseph's University                   1       1
St. Mary's University                       2       2
University of Saskatchewan          4       4
Sir George Williams College     27      22
University of Toronto                     28      7
    Sopron Technical Group      49      49
University of Western Ontario   16      12
National Research Council       2       -
Universit=E9 Sacre Coeur               1       1
Ecole de M=E9dicine Veterinaire   1       1
Ecole des Hautes Etudes           1       1
Ecole Polytechnique                 8       8
Loyola College                           1       -
Ontario Veterinary College      1       -
Alberta College                           2       2
Alma College                              2       2
Prince of Wales College           2       2


Peter I. Hidas

Hungarian Studies
Department Of Russian and Slavic Studies
McGill University
Montreal, Quebec, Canada

I have never met the practice or the explanation
even when I was a permanent resident in Hungary.
Expensive restaurants are so empty, that
I have the feeling even  vicious and ugly
extraterrestial tourists would be welcome.
Last august  at 12 oclock moon, we were the sole
guests in a great restaurant in the middle of
Obuda centre, with an open "kerthelyseg" with
lovely cool trees, beautiful food, and middle-
range prices.

Eva Durant

>
> Janos Zsargo, quoting me:
>
> >I was told later by my
> >>relatives that the owners of most restaurants use this device in case a
> >>Gypsy family would like to use their services! Mind you there was just
> >>lately a court case involving a beer parlor whose owner refused to serve a
> >>Gypsy! In the same town.
> >
> >Now, I guess this a typical example what would be called 'csusztatas, fel-
> >igazsag' in hungarian.
>
>         Well, it wasn't me who came to the conclusion about the real purpose
> of these reserved tables. In fact, I am too naive to assume that this was
> the reason. I was told by the people I was with. If they told me
> "half-truth" it is their half-truth, not mine.
>
> >My mother
> >happened to work at the BVV (Belvarosi Vendeglatoipari Vallalat) later
> >called Taverna Szalloda es Vendeglatoipari Vallalat (~a kind of hotal
> >and restaurant chain) for years. I have a pretty good idea and experience
> >with the internal life of hungarian restuarants. True they put 'Reserved'
> >card very often on tables, however not always and everywhere, probably to
> >filter the guests and also to control where they sit. This tool is usually
> >used in more 'elegant' restaurants.
>
>         Well, this was not a more elegant restaurant. It was a III. class
> restaurant: kisvendeglo. Moreover, I find the whole practice--even if
> innocent--odd. I have never seen all tables reserved in an American
> restaurant. Have you?
>
> >Why do you want to show more terrible picture of the hungarian everyday life
> >than it is, Eva?
>
>         Here, we are back at what should be said and what should not be said
> about conditions in Hungary. I am against cover-ups, whether it is here or
> there.
>
> >What will be the next, the pictograms on the hungarian
> >public transportation that urge to give your seats to the elderly are for
> >prevent the gypsie youngs to sit or what else?
>
> Well, this is a ridiculous statement and you know it.
>
> Eva Balogh

On Wed, 13 Mar 1996, Janos Zsargo wrote:

> J. Szalai wrote:
>
> >No Janos.  I will not ignore the "Reserved" tables at restaurants.  I am
> >sure that a lot of Hungarian restaurants depend on the tourist trade.  I
> >will do whatever I can to alert anyone who is going to Hungary to boycott
> >those restaurants that use "Reserved" tables to prevent gypsies from eating
> >in their establishment.  If the restauranteurs don't understand that that
> >kind of discrimination is unacceptable perhaps they'll understand the
> >meaning of bankruptcy.
> >
> >Joe Szalai
>
> Fine. At least such situation will be avoided when some backpacker is
> refused to be served by a gypsie waiter(ress). Bon voyage to Hungary
> and do not forget to pack some food!
>
> Au revoir
> Janos
>
Interesting you say that Janos, because I was turned away because I did
have a backpack and was a foreigner in Nagykanisza. It wasn't like I
chose a 3-4 star restaurant either. The person even said some things I
don't think he thought I would understand. Amazing that the slang you can
pick
up on a basketball court, comes in really handy when you want to call the
owner a few choice names.

Since I have had to delete a great deal of material lately without
looking at it, I have seen reserved signs in really good restaurants. Is
it only to discriminate against gypsies and other minorities?

Darren

On Thu, 14 Mar 1996, DARREN E PURCELL wrote:
>
> Since I have had to delete a great deal of material lately without
> looking at it, I have seen reserved signs in really good restaurants. Is
> it only to discriminate against gypsies and other minorities?
>
No, I think this is used most frequently in restaurants which cater to
tour buses. BTW, when it is used as a means of choosing the customer, the
term "gypsy" means someone who is not dressed appropriately.

Barna Bozoki

In article >, Tony and Celia
Becker > writes:

> Some negative attitudes
>toward Hungarians even can be found in some areas today--I ran into some
in
>both the Chicago area and the West side of Toledo just last year--and was
>very surprised, indeed.
>
>Please, again, bear in mind, this is only one opinion, based upon
personal
>experiences and research.  Don't bite too hard, please.  :-)
>
>Sincerely,
Hey, Celia!
That is pretty surprising to me too. Just goes to show that even in this
day and age, there are still people in this country who will begrudge
another person's existence just because the other person is somehow
different from them. We've come pretty far from the "good old" days when
there were signs in stores throughout the country that said "No dogs or
Irishmen allowed" and blacks were forced to use segregated facilities. It
won't ever be perfect, though, because in a democracy you can't legislate
what someone thinks or believes. Still, harboring resentment against
Hungarians in particular seems a bit arcane for the average American at
the moment. Someone needs to tell these particular countrymen of yours and
mine to get a life.
Sam Stowe

In article >,
Janos Zsargo > writes:

> And what Buchanan told, whoa, he is quite successfully approaching
>the level of our Torgyan. I think it would be a complet disaster if he
were
>elected, at least in economical sense. He would probably launch a
trade-war
>against Japan, East-Asia, and everybody.
>
>Janos Zsargo

Yes, but is it true that his speeches sound better in the original German?
Sam Stowe

>Guess who showed up in our campus tonight! :-) ........... And what
>Buchanan told, whoa, he is quite successfully approaching
>the level of our Torgyan. I think it would be a complet disaster if he were
>elected, at least in economical sense. He would probably launch a trade-war
>against Japan, East-Asia, and everybody.
>
>Janos Zsargo


Fear not Janos,

        It appears that all we had to do was let Pat keep talking and he
would eventually self destruct.  Like the David Dukes, Louis Farrakhans,
etc. they are usually their own worst enemies.  To his credit, Pat Buchanan
has not been afraid to ask some of the questions that have been concerns
for many.  Why is the economy booming yet layoffs loom larger every day?
That sort of thing.  To me though, it's not his questions, but his answers
that are scary.

        As for the large well-dressed men that accompany him.  That's our
tax dollars at work.  Those are members of the United States Secret
Service.  All presidential candidates who qualify for federal matching
funds are entitled to protection by the Secret Service.  Having known
several of its members, I can say without qualification that they are some
of the best trained and professional security personnel anywhere.


Regards,

Doug Hormann

At 09:39 PM 3/13/96 -0500, Sam Stowe wrote:

>You taking a lead from Nietzsche -- now there's a scary thought.

It's only scary if, a)you don't understand me, or, b)you don't understand
Nietzsche.  But not to worry.  Anyone who can quote one liners by Nietzsche
and, or, Mae West, is goiong to do all right in life.  I wonder if my
Hayekist friends on this newsgroup would have understood Mae West when she
said, "When it comes to finances, remember that there are no withholding
taxes on the wages of sin".

>I say this at the risk of confusing you, but there's a difference between
>being truly original and strikingly different in an intellectual sense and
>just being a contrarian.

Oh, don't worry about that, Sam.  I'm not a contrarian.  I gave up ALL
religion when I grew up.

>The degree to which you are able to shock or anger
>others is no measure of the former quality.  It is, however, the sine qua
>non of the latter.

Says who?  Do I have no free will or choice in the matter?  Perhaps another
line from Nietzsche will help you.  "Does wisdom perhaps appear on the earth
as a raven which is inspired by the smell of carrion"?

Do you think that I should stick to books written by Dr. Seuss?

Joe Szalai

> >
> >Janos Zsargo
>
> Yes, but is it true that his speeches sound better in the original German?
> Sam Stowe
>
I thought Buchanan's German was limited to Seig Heil, and Mittleeuropa (I
wonder if there is an equivalent to MittleAmerica?)

Darren

Janos Zsargo said:

>And what Buchanan told, whoa, he is quite successfully approaching
>the level of our Torgyan.

        The comparison is apt. Any of you who are not Hungarian-speakers and
didn't have the "privilege" to listen to Dr. Torgyan in the original, the
example of Buchanan will suffice. Very similar in style and in demagogy.

        Eva Balogh

Johanne said a few days ago:

>>Kedves Balogh Eva!

>>I would love to read your comments [concerning a number of questions from
antisemitism to Lezsak].
>>
>>Nagyon sze'pen ko:szo:no:m,

        Although I think I answered Johanne's questions to the best of my
ability, Cecilia adds the following:


>I'm going to take a stab at answering this one, based upon my acquaintance
>with several groups of Hungarians.

        I am afraid I will have to take another stab at this stab because in
many ways I find Cecilia's description of the Hungarian situation concerning
antisemitism misleading:

>I've learned (from people who were involved in the
>"education process"--as "students") by the Nazi youth groups in Germany who
>arranged "boy/girl scout exchanges," assistance programs (in setting up
>youth groups, providing materials and programs, etc.).

        It is simply not true that Hungarian antisemitism was due to some
German-Third Reich influence. Antisemitism in Hungary had its own native
roots and if there was any "foreign" influence that came from Austria and
not Germany and not after the First World War but before that.

>The tendencies encouraged by Germany were worsened when it was noted that
>some of the Bela Kun administration themselves claimed to be Jewish.

        Well, here we get a little confused chronologically. First came the
recognition (as it is put by Cecilia: "it was noted") that "some of Bela
Kun's administration  claimed to be Jewish" and ten years later or so there
was German propaganda. Indeed, it was "noted" all right. Certain units of
the National Army (that is Miklos Horthy's troops) hanged a few as they made
their way from Szeged to Siofok. According to some sources there were
thousands (not just Jews) who were summarily executed by this patriotic lot.

>heard (and find it hard to believe) that almost all of the Bela Kun
>communists were Jewish.

        Not so terribly hard to believe. Social democracy in Europe had
quite a few Jewish followers and, after all, the Hungarian Soviet Republic
grew out of this social democratic movement.

>The excesses of that regime--whether real or
>propagandized by Horthy--were then tied together with "Jewishness" further
>by propaganda of Germanophiles, who also tended to be anti-socialist.

        The excesses were real--Horthy didn't have to propagandize them.
Moreover, everybody remembered pretty well what had happened. According to
statistics the "Lenin boys" killed about 400 people. And again, let's not
try to bring Germany into the picture. It had nothing to do with Germany.

>There is some anti-semitism in the post WWII generation also.  When I asked
>about this from some people who were unabashedly so, one answer I got rather
>a lot was a complex answer involving several thoughts.  First, that people
>were disgusted by the Jews playing themselves up as greater victims than
>other Hungarians and forgetting a large resistance group that had existed
>and suffered

        That's new to me. There was no resistance movement to speak of in
Hungary. My father used to joke about this so-called resistance movement.
Some of the members of the so-called resistance movement used to get
together with great fanfare during the Kadar regime. My father was most
skeptical about their stories. As he said, he at least got so far as to grab
his pistol on October 15, 1994 wanting to join the resistance but there was
no resistance to join.

>(the Holocaust Memorial does mention this and notes a massacre
>of resistance that occurred about May 15, 1944

        Again, I am at a loss about what massacre you are talking about.

>Second, that the Jews themselves since World War II have
>constantly reminded the world--including Hungarians--of their victim status
>and have not gone beyond that,

        Do you want to equate the loss of Hungarian Jewry (or, to be more
precise, European Jewry) with losses, for example, of the Hungarian army
suffered in Russia? I don't think that the two can be equated, however much
Geza Jeszenszky, Hungary's former foreign minister and fellow historians,
tried to do so. If the Jews were not victims I don't know what they were.
Also, I am not sure how they are supposed to go "beyond that." Forget about
it, perhaps?

>Hungarians find this particularly hurtful because, they
>insist, they were/are willing to think of Jewish Hungarians as just other
>Hungarians and Hungarians generally did not want the Holocaust and tried to
>prevent it in Hungary, yet Hungarians seem to be treated by the Jewish
>people today as just Germans under another label.

        The rounding up of Jews in Hungary was done not by the Germans but
by Hungarian authorities. Any attempt to act as if Hungary had nothing to do
with all this is self-delusion. Instead of protesting it would be a mighty
good idea to simply admit--as the Germans did--that the Hungarian government
(the ministry of interior to be precise) was in charge of the deportations.
My father who was an eyewitness of the march of Pecs's Jewish population to
the railway station told me that there were no German soldiers in sight. A
couple of Hungarian gendarmes were in charge.

>Third, is an element of
>envy; the Jews on account of their victimhood were able to have the West
>restore Israel to them, while Hungarians are still allowed to suffer as
>persecuted minorities in Romania, Slovakia, and Serbia--and again, the Jews,
>even Jewish Hungarians are believed to be doing nothing to help stop this
>oppression.  This ties in with reason number 2.

        Well, I have heard a lot of explanation for envy of Jews but this is
entirely new to me.


>However, in general, the "third generation" (post war) anti-semitism seems
>to be rooted more in a sense of hurt, betrayal and surprise than in a belief
>that Jewish Hungarians are not Hungarian, or are an inferior race or some
>such nonsense.  The post war economy hasn't helped for this generation, either
.

        Again, if Hungarians feel that way--hurt, betrayed, surprised--it is
a mighty interesting way of putting the whole current problem. The Hungarian
nationalists (and they are many of them not just on the right but also on
left) are the ones who don't consider Hungarian Jews part of the nation.
They are the ones who endlessly debate the genetic makeup of today's
Hungarians; they are the ones who talk about Jews as rootless wanderers,
here one day, there next; they are the ones who try to blame the Jews for
the whole Communist episode. They are the ones who accuse of Hungary's Jews
to be "cosmopolitan," who don't consider Hungary's national interests. One
can go on and on. And now things got so bad that members of the MDF yell
antisemitic remarks at Gyorgy Szabad, one of the man responsible for the
establishment of the party.

        With the rest of Cecilia's comments I agree: antisemitism is not an
endearing trait and it doesn't float well in the United States.


        Eva Balogh

At 12:17 PM 3/14/96 -0500, Doug Hormann wrote:

>To his credit, Pat Buchanan
>has not been afraid to ask some of the questions that have been concerns
>for many.  Why is the economy booming yet layoffs loom larger every day?
>That sort of thing.

I don't believe this.  Doug Hormann is starting to attact the natural
workings of capitalism.  What's next?  Truth, justice and the American way?
Is nothing sacred?

Joe Szalai

Darren Purcell:


>Since I have had to delete a great deal of material lately without
>looking at it, I have seen reserved signs in really good restaurants. Is
>it only to discriminate against gypsies and other minorities?

        No, most likely not. Against all those who don't appeal to the
management.

        Eva Balogh

At 08:21 14/03/96 -0500, you wrote:
>In article >, Tony and Celia
>Becker > writes:
>
<snip snip>

>>Please, again, bear in mind, this is only one opinion, based upon
>personal
>>experiences and research.  Don't bite too hard, please.  :-)
>>
>>Sincerely,
>Hey, Celia!
>That is pretty surprising to me too.
<snip snip>
Still, harboring resentment against
>Hungarians in particular seems a bit arcane for the average American at
>the moment. Someone needs to tell these particular countrymen of yours and
>mine to get a life.
>Sam Stowe
>
Hey, Cecilia! -

It's okay, you can come out of that foxhole now! That fusilade you were
expecting didn't arrive! (Unless Sam is just trying to suck you in, that is ;-)

Yours,
Johanne

Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 

May I suggest

http://www.oise.on.ca/~ajhyman/JewishStudies/library/hungary1

Peter I. Hidas, Montreal

At 05:31 PM 3/13/96 -0500, George Szaszvari wrote:

>I'm just suspicious of the seemingly sanctimonious comments and
>apparent surprise at relating so-called amusing stories about this
>sort of discrimination. Surely you haven't lived such sheltered lives
>that it can be called *amusing* or *despicable*? Please correct me
>if I'm wrong!
>
>Okay, Joe, you wanted some vigorous debate, so let's rock 'n roll! :-)

First of all, I'm honoured to have this dance with you.  You're the second
man in the last little while who's wanted to dance (cyberdance?) with me.
My last dance, with John Czifra, didn't go so well.  We both wanted to lead
and we kept bumping our foreheads together.  It turned into a mentally
bruising and intellectually numbing experience.   We were supposed to Tango
and Csardas but we just kept going around and around and around.  Those
dances are a bit more complex than just spinning around like silly little
tops?  Aren't they?  Anyway, this dance can't be any worse than the last
one.  So let's go!

I must admit that I was surprised when I read Eva Balogh's post on
"Reserved" tables.  I was surprised because I didn't realize that that sort
of thing went on, and I was surprised by Eva's lack of criticism of "this
device".  Granted, she used exlamaion marks, and I take that to be a sign of
protest.  But is that it?  Just an exclamation mark?   An exclamation mark
(!) is used after an exclamation but an exclamation could be one of delight.
I was surprised and disappointed.

Do I live a sheltered life because I didn't know that that kind of
discrimination goes on in Hungary?  Perhaps.  But it might also have
something to do with living in Canada.   No doubt there are Canadians who
discriminate.  Probably too many.  But Canada is very multi-cultural and
multi-racial and that kind of discrimination in a restaurnat could not
happen.  It wouldn't be worth anyone's time to even try.  Restaurants can
and do take reservations, and they can have dress codes (no shirt, no shoes,
no service).  But that's it.

The kind of discrimination that Eva writes about can only happen if society
allows it to happen.  There must be a general consensus that it's OK to
discriminate, regardless of what the 'law' might say.  I am disappointed
that Hungary is such a society.  The fact that it happens in many other
societies as well, is no reason for rejoicing.

Are you still suspicious of my surprise?

Joe Szalai

I had a nice lady forward a response that had been posted to the
newsgroup about the town of Balassagyarmat.  Apparently, my server had
not paid for this posting - ie. I never got to read it until this lady
e-mailed it to me.

Everyone should be aware that each service provider (the person who you
pay each month to be on the internet) actually *has to buy* each
posting.  There is actually someone who decides what is worth buying for
their customers to read.

To anyone that responded to my posting, but didn't send e-mail:  If I
have not personally responded to your posting, *please* e-mail me with
your information!  This means that I didn't have a chance to read the
posting on the newsgroup.

Thank you to all,

Val

Joe Szalai wrote:

> At 05:31 PM 3/13/96 -0500, George Szaszvari wrote:
> >I'm just suspicious of the seemingly sanctimonious comments and
> >apparent surprise at relating so-called amusing stories about this
> >sort of discrimination. Surely you haven't lived such sheltered lives
> >that it can be called *amusing* or *despicable*? Please correct me
> >if I'm wrong!

> I must admit that I was surprised when I read Eva Balogh's post on
> "Reserved" tables.  I was surprised because I didn't realize that that sort
> of thing went on, and I was surprised by Eva's lack of criticism of "this
> device".  Granted, she used exlamaion marks, and I take that to be a sign of
> protest.  But is that it?  Just an exclamation mark?   An exclamation mark
> (!) is used after an exclamation but an exclamation could be one of delight.
> I was surprised and disappointed.

Now this is bordering on offensive.  You haven't come to this list yesterday,
so you know perfectly well what Eva Balogh's general approach is to such
issues.  It was also pretty obvious from the context that mentioning this
example of discrimination was not out of sheer delight over it.  You cannot
expect a full rebuttal and vigorous condemnation of every negative thing
mentioned in discussions, as this would make it impossible to write concise
contributions to debates, and you cannot interpret the lack of condemnation
as an indication of condoning the phenomenon.

> Do I live a sheltered life because I didn't know that that kind of
> discrimination goes on in Hungary?  Perhaps.

Absolutely.  And, in the light this, perhaps your pontificative style in
the frequent contributions to the list could be toned down a little.

> But it might also have
> something to do with living in Canada.   No doubt there are Canadians who
> discriminate.  Probably too many.  But Canada is very multi-cultural and
> multi-racial and that kind of discrimination in a restaurnat could not
> happen.

Albeit devoid of Hungarian content, I cannot go past this.  Such a sweeping
statement, quite in contradiction to the sentence before it, would raise
doubts about the extent of your life experience even beyond Hungary.

George Antony

At 05:50 PM 3/13/96 -0500, George Szaszvari wrote:

>Sometimes you're too personal in your comments (if I may so so) and
>perhaps you deserve a bit of criticism now and again. Who doesn't?

True enough.  However, the self-esteem movement wishes to do away with all
comments that are personal.  I don't.  Comments are not born in vacua.  They
belong to those who utter or parrot them.

>But some people seem not to like ANY criticism at all and seem to take
>refutations of their assertions rather badly (damages the image of their
>immaculate cult status apparently.)

You got that right!  And then there are people like George Antony who accuse
me of having a sheltered life.

>I like the spirit of this and one or two other recent postings of yours.
>Some people on this ng are letting a sense of their own self-importance
>get the better of them.

No!  You're kidding!  Who do you have in mind?  Anyone I know?

>Keep posting, man! It's healthy.

It's as good as a BM in the morning.  Thanks.

Joe Szalai

At 07:04 PM 3/14/96 -0500, George Antony wrote:

>Now this is bordering on offensive.  You haven't come to this list
>yesterday, so you know perfectly well what Eva Balogh's general approach is
>to such issues.

Yes.  I have a very good idea of her general approach to such issues.  Her
approach is to speak a good line, to renounce discrimination, and then go on
to support political parties in Hungary whose economic policies drive a
wedge between people.  I know that the MDF, or whatever party she supports,
did not create anti-gypsy or anti-anything feelings, but it's policies have
not helped either.  It all depends on your priorities.

>It was also pretty obvious from the context that mentioning this
>example of discrimination was not out of sheer delight over it.

I didn't say it was.  In fact I said that I took her use of an exclamation
mark as a sign of protest.  But I was, and remain, disappointed that that's
all she did.

>You cannot
>expect a full rebuttal and vigorous condemnation of every negative thing
>mentioned in discussions, as this would make it impossible to write concise
>contributions to debates, and you cannot interpret the lack of condemnation
>as an indication of condoning the phenomenon.

She may not condone the phenomenon, but because relatives are involved,
silence rules.  And the phenomenon persists.

>> Do I live a sheltered life because I didn't know that that kind of
>> discrimination goes on in Hungary?  Perhaps.
>
>Absolutely.  And, in the light this, perhaps your pontificative style in
>the frequent contributions to the list could be toned down a little.

You'll be all right.  It's not my style that's pontificative but yours.  And
it's arrogant too.  You give new meaning to the concept of 'papal bull'.

>> But it might also have
>> something to do with living in Canada.   No doubt there are Canadians who
>> discriminate.  Probably too many.  But Canada is very multi-cultural and
>> multi-racial and that kind of discrimination in a restaurnat could not
>> happen.
>
>Albeit devoid of Hungarian content, I cannot go past this.  Such a sweeping
>statement, quite in contradiction to the sentence before it, would raise
>doubts about the extent of your life experience even beyond Hungary.

Now George, if you'd stop hyper-ventilating, and relaxed a little bit, you
would be able to understand what I wrote.  I wrote that many Canadians
discriminate.  For me, one is too many.  And if you don't believe that that
kind of discrimination could not happen in a Canadian restaurant then that's
your problem.  It is by no means a sweeping statement.  If I'm wrong then
perhaps someone who is familiar with the Canadian restaurant scene will
correct me.

Joe Szalai

At 09:39 PM 3/13/96 -0500, Sam Stowe wrote:

>You taking a lead from Nietzsche -- now there's a scary thought.

Nietzsche anticipated your appraisal of his work.  In Ecce Homo, "Why I Am a
Destiny", he wrote, "I know my fate. One day there will be associated with
my name the recollection of something frightful-of a crisis like no other
before on earth, of the profoundest collision of conscience, of a decision
evoked against everything that until then had been believed in, demanded,
sanctified. I am not a man I am dynamite".  Or at least some bad gas that
keeps coming back.  But what can you do, eh?

Joe Szalai

Joe Szalai wrote:

> At 07:04 PM 3/14/96 -0500, George Antony wrote:
> >Now this is bordering on offensive.  You haven't come to this list
> >yesterday, so you know perfectly well what Eva Balogh's general approach is
> >to such issues.

> Yes.  I have a very good idea of her general approach to such issues.  Her
> approach is to speak a good line, to renounce discrimination, and then go on
> to support political parties in Hungary whose economic policies drive a
> wedge between people.

You are pathetic, you just cannot help yourself.  If you cannot fault Eva
Balogh on one thing, you just must find something else against her, even
if it is as vague and laughable as the one above, especially coming from you
whose knowledge of Hungary has been demonstrated to be deficient.

> I know that the MDF, or whatever party she supports,
> did not create anti-gypsy or anti-anything feelings, but it's policies have
> not helped either.  It all depends on your priorities.

What does ?  How do you know that she supports any particular party in Hungary,
and why the MDF ?  Innuendos, all the time.  It is pretty clear that she got
under your skin, but while trying to smear her might make you feel better, it
will merely show you in a bad light in the eyes of others.

Besides, particularly while Csurka was a prominent member, the MDF did
create plenty of antagonistic feelings.  You are factually wrong, again, on a
matter related to Hungary.

> >It was also pretty obvious from the context that mentioning this
> >example of discrimination was not out of sheer delight over it.

> I didn't say it was.  In fact I said that I took her use of an exclamation
> mark as a sign of protest.  But I was, and remain, disappointed that that's
> all she did.

This is not at all the way your original read.  At best it was very ambiguously
worded, at worst it was intimating that she may not even mean that exclamation
mark a protest.  Now you are trying to shirk away from that in a particularly
undignified manner.

> >You cannot
> >expect a full rebuttal and vigorous condemnation of every negative thing
> >mentioned in discussions, as this would make it impossible to write concise
> >contributions to debates, and you cannot interpret the lack of condemnation
> >as an indication of condoning the phenomenon.

> She may not condone the phenomenon, but because relatives are involved,
> silence rules.  And the phenomenon persists.

Ah, so she MAY not condone the phenomenon !  You are still trying to stick to
your ambiguous line and plant a doubt in the readers' mind about Eva's
intentions.  As I said, bordering on offensive, and the longer you persist
with this the more offensive it gets.

> >> But it might also have
> >> something to do with living in Canada.   No doubt there are Canadians who
> >> discriminate.  Probably too many.  But Canada is very multi-cultural and
> >> multi-racial and that kind of discrimination in a restaurnat could not
> >> happen.

> >Albeit devoid of Hungarian content, I cannot go past this.  Such a sweeping
> >statement, quite in contradiction to the sentence before it, would raise
> >doubts about the extent of your life experience even beyond Hungary.

> Now George, if you'd stop hyper-ventilating, and relaxed a little bit, you
> would be able to understand what I wrote.  I wrote that many Canadians
> discriminate.  For me, one is too many.  And if you don't believe that that
> kind of discrimination could not happen in a Canadian restaurant then that's
> your problem.  It is by no means a sweeping statement.

Logic failure, once again.  'this kind of discrimination could not happen'
means that it is impossible to happen: it never does, it never will.  This is
an absolute statement.  One single exception will blow it out of the water,
and Canada cannot be so perfect as to be guaranteed not to have one single
case from now to eternity.  If you did not mean that, your wording was wrong,
but then you do seem to have a problem with woolly thinking and/or wording.

> If I'm wrong then
> perhaps someone who is familiar with the Canadian restaurant scene will
> correct me.

If you are not familiar with the Canadian restaurant scene, how can you judge
it with such an air of authority ?  So, who is pontificating ?

George Antony