>
>         Only from "socialist" viewpoint can possibly the MDF, the MSZP, and
> the SZDSZ be considered indistinguishable. You just tell Mr. Lezsak that he
> is actually indistinguishable from Mr. Horn or from Tamas Krausz, and he
> might punch you in the nose. Also, I don't think that Ivan Peto would be too
> enamored to be compared to Sandor Nagy.
>

So what  is   the difference  in the policies??? I think there
are other people on the list besides me who are not clear  on
this.  Or is it just the difference of power-hungry individuals,
as you seem to indicate?

>
>         Yes, you are. And why did you mention only the MDF, the MSZP, the
> SZDSZ and the Fidesz. What about the Smallholders and the Christian
> Socialists--are they also indistinguishable from the above mentioned
> parties. Or, are they better from your vantage point? After all, they are
> etatist in outlook, increasingly antagonistic toward the west democracy,
> foreign capital, foreigners in general. Are their views perhaps closer to
> yours? After all, on the left the Munkaspart has similar notions; notions
> which should be fairly close to yours.
>

I thought the Christian Socialists were small and the Smallholders
indeed extremist in standard opinion, same as the Munkaspart,
that's why I did not ask to differentiate them, too.
But do, by all means.  I don't think any of them are
democratic.  I would not trust any of them to be democratic
on or out of power.
So a short rundown on the (POLITICAL) differences, please?
Eva Durant

>
> E. Durant wrote:
>
> >Just what is so different about SzDSz policies?
> >Could someone inform me what is the political
> >difference  indeed between MSzP, MDF, SzDSz
> >and FIDESZ (If exists)? They all want
> >capitalism with integration in Europe.
> >If in opposition, than they want it to be done
> >in a miraclous socially acceptable way.
> >The details of tax/privatization level etc.
> >vary according to which "side" of each party one looks at.
> >Am I very wrong?
> >Eva Durant
>
> What is the difference between Szalasi and Nagy Imre? Both
> liked Hungary and wanted to avoid the Stalinism. And worst
> of all both men might like 'toltottpaprika'!
>
> Janos

Very informative, thank you.

Eva Durant

As many of you have noted, I have recently posted questions to the
readers of this newsgroup about the place where my father was born.

Unfortunately, my father died when I was 15, so I really never got to
ask him the important questions about his life.

He had a tattoo of a small blue dot on his right hand between his thumb
and index finger, and his birth year tattooed on his inner right
forearm.  Does anyone know about this?

My mother asked him about this and he never spoke about it.  She tried
to ask other Hungarian people, but they too would not say anything.

A sincere thank you to all who respond.

Val

part 5.

The petroleum engineering students were eventually shipped to Edmonton, the
only university in Canada with an oil engineering  faculty. In both Toronto
and Edmonton the students and the faculty were to join their Canadian
counterparts. Actually, it was the advance party of the Hungarians that
opposed the continuation of their studies in Hungarian. Once all this was
agreed, the University of Toronto arranged with the Ontario government for
the use of a small reception center at the Canadian Red Cross Society's
hostel in Toronto. Later a second hostel was found at another Toronto
location, Charley Park. This hostel was to be used until May 31 when the
students  were to be transferred to private accommodations.

        The processing of students for Canada was temporarily interrupted
in early February 1957, as a result of a minor scandal in Vienna.  Taking
with them the Committee files, the Austrian Hochsch=FClerschaft withdrew fro=
m
the Coordinating Committee for International Relief for Hungarian Students,
accusing the others, including Canadians, of corruption. However, at the
request of  the Canadian Ambassador, J.S. Macdonald,  the files for
students destined to leave for Canada were returned and processing could be
resumed.

                Throughout  March, W.U.S. continued to present refugee
students to the Canadian Embassy in Vienna. The local immigration officer
was planning to process only 150 students for future flights to Montreal.
C.E.S. Smith, the Director of Immigration, who apparently had not shared
Pickersgill's enthusiasm for Hungarian refugee students, suggested to his
immigration officer in Vienna that students who have just began their first
year of university study at the time of the revolution, those who had
already graduated, and high school graduates should not be included in the
special flights.   The flight of the 150 was authorized but the Department
informed Vienna that it did not intend to visa any more refugee students as
such because there was "little likelihood of their being assisted to
continue their university studies" in Canada.  Smith's views were the same
as the American and the Australian representatives at the United Nations.
His estimation concerning the likelihood of the Hungarians obtaining full
scholarships in Canada was a correct one. Unfortunately, when they were
still in Europe there was a major misunderstanding  between the refugee
students and various Canadian authorities about whether the students were
assured or not of obtaining scholarships.

        The president of the N.C.C.U. Committee on Hungarian Refugee
Students commented on the question in 1958:

The brutal suppression of the uprising resulted in almost immediate
outpourings of promises of succour for refugee "Freedom Fighters." Many of
these young students, to whom I express the almost universally outspoken
sentiment, to whom Western liberals felt was owed a great debt, a public
sentiment that wanted perceptibly in the following months when payment was
asked for. Most of these had interpreted vague statements about
availability of free scholarships to mean that they would receive immediate
assistance and almost immediate acceptance by Canadian Universities. Many
were disappointed on their arrival to find that their expectations were
baseless but accepted the realities of the situation when these were
properly interpreted to them.

        The Sopron groups received the most support but not according to
their expectations and their understanding of verbal promises. According to
the recollections of two of the Sopron professors and authors of the book
=46oresters in Exile, the Soproners were promised the following:

1. Students of the Sopron Faculty of Forestry could finish their studies in
Hungarian and would be acceptable as professional foresters in Canada.
2.  Canada would pay for transportation to Vancouver.
3. For the duration of their studies, both students and staff would receive
financial assistance from the Canadian Government.
4. Professors and students could freely return to Hungary, when and if they
wished.

These promises were never put in writing. They were only made verbally  not
by Pickersgill but probably by Gordon Cox, First Secretary at the Canadian
Embassy in Vienna. They were fulfilled except for the first and the third
points mentioned, which gave cause for controversy, confusion and
bitterness among the Soproners. James Sinclair made one of the first
unfulfilled pledges. He wired Vienna on 3 December 1956 promising secure
employment to the members of the Forestry Group.  The Chairman of the Board
of Powell River Corporation qualified his own contribution within days. He
had offered his lumber camp to the Soproners for up to one year, but
immediately requested the federal government to underwrite the cost of
food, clothing, living allowances and the salaries of the cookhouse staff.
Sinclair, the Minister of Fisheries,  agreed.   Paul Hellyer also showed
caution. He wired Gordon Cox that all students and faculty will be
evaluated individually before acceptance and that the University of Toronto
will only provide a few bursaries.  There were others who also had
reservations about Pickersgill's policy. N.A.M.  MacKenzie of U.B.C., who
originally agreed to welcome the Sopron Forestry School, fired off a
personal and confidential letter to his friend, L.B. Pearson, who
immediately forwarded the note, without comment, to Pickersgill. He claimed
that it was unrealistic to expect the forestry industry and his university
"to look after these Hungarians without help." He figured that the
Hungarians would go back to Hungary in due course. This affair, he wrote,
is part of the cold war. Financing it is cheaper than purchasing war
mat=E9riel.  He asked for a special federal grant.  Pickersgill was furious.
In his "Dear Larry" note he assured N.A.M. MacKenzie, that the Sopron group
would not go back to Hungary but, in time, they would become an asset to
Canada. He reminded his friend that the federal government had recently
doubled his university grant for the current year despite the fact that
British Columbia was one of the two richest provinces in Canada. The
minister pointed at the healthier attitudes of Manitoba, Toronto and Laval
and asked his president-friend to make his contribution.

        MacKenzie responded by stating that he could possibly take 200
students "if they came the normal way." The real problem for him was the
Hungarian teaching staff whom he categorically refused to add to his
faculty in a permanent way -- and he kept his word. He offered classes for
the Hungarians from 3:30 in the afternoon until midnight. He felt he was
doing his utmost, after all was not Laval doing little and  did not
Manitoba change its mind? Eventually $100,000 of the new grant was set
aside to aid the Soproners. Most of that sum was used for salaries.   But
the University of British Columbia decided to pay the Hungarian professors
and their dean only $3,000 per annum rather than the usual $8,000 that was
paid to U.B.C. professors at that time.  The university paid a salary of
$2,600  to a Hungarian associate professor instead of the regular scale pay
of between $6,500 to $7,500. Assistant professors received an income of
between $2,200 and $2,500 instead of $5,000 to $6,000; lecturers got $1,400
to $2,200 instead of $4000 to $5,000. In addition, they were offered group
accommodation by Immigration, the "Sopron barracks", at the R.C.A.F. base
on Sea Island. Some of the professors left in disgust while others stayed
but preferred to live outside the Camp despite "the meager salary" they
received. As far as the students were concerned the University was
"adamant." The local district Superintendent of Immigration, P.W.Bird,
reported that the University demanded that all the refugee students,
regardless of summer employment, pay regular fees.

        Once in Canada, the Soproners were told to look for a job for the
summer of 1957 as this was customary and was done regularly by Canadian
university students in need of funds for their education. Many of the needs
of the Soproners were provided, however, and they were able to continue
their education with limited funds. Furthermore, since the Soproners mainly
received instructions in Hungarian, they were not so handicapped as
students who wanted to continue their studies in English and would have
needed the summer of 1957 to acquire the necessary language skills. This
latter group also counted on the alleged promises made in Vienna. Had such
promises been made?

         The most controversial and misinterpreted statement was made, most
likely by Cox, at the Vienna Embassy.  Cox sent the following cable to
Pickersgill on 19 December 1956: "I am proceeding with arrangements to send
a group of students to Canada...intend only to assure them transportation
to Canada and suitable arrangements for continuing their studies to those
qualified." [Emphasis added, not in the original]  Cox must have been aware
of the fact that education in Hungary was free and scholarships were
provided for those in need and that the refugee students honestly believed
that Canada would provide the necessary scholarships.  "Suitable
arrangements" meant continuous support in Canada as far as the refugee
students were concerned. There was no misunderstanding in the minds of
Hungarian refugee students and professors who were interviewed in Austria.
A fair number of students who were interviewed at the Embassy between
November and February knew enough English to eliminate the possibility of
collective misunderstanding. Neither was the issue clouded in the minds of
Ottawa civil servants in the Department of Immigration and Citizenship who
wanted to treat the students as regular refugees.

        Before meeting the newly formed National Conference of Canadian
Universities' (NCCU) Committee on Hungarian Refugees Students, Smith,
Director of Immigration, noted for himself:

 Commitments made to refugee students -
(a) free transportation
(b) Put in touch with Canadian Committee; they will be expected
to take employment

At the meeting the Chairman noted that the universities and the N.C.C.U.
had made and were making no commitments on admission of students and
suggested that the government slow down the flow of incoming students.
=46ortier, the Director's immediate superior, could not slow down the influx
of students even if he wished to do so because of Pickersgill's
instructions, but warned Cox that he should make no commitments to the
students.  Now, even earlier assurances were reneged. Oszk=E1r Ferenczi, the
self-appointed leader of the Hungarian students arriving in Montreal,
claimed that Cox promised full scholarships in Vienna and that this pledge
was an important consideration for opting for Canada.  The Hungarian
refugee students who arrived in Montreal claimed that promises of
scholarships were made to them by Canadian officials in Vienna.  Stanley
Hart, Secretary of the McGill Liberal Club, pressed Pickersgill to see
=46erenczi to clear up the matter.  While Pickersgill agreed to see Ferenczi=
,
he remained unconvinced. The government maintained that no such promise had
ever been made. The Director of Immigration, worrying about the political
implications of "favouritism" wanted to distract Pickersgill from carrying
through his policy of selective immigration, of bargain hunting. If we
maintain the students until September we might be accused, wrote Smith,
that "we are treating refugees better than other immigrants and, in fact,
better than Canadians." The cost involved is $250,000. We should pay for
them only until their academic qualifications are determined, then
distribute them and find them employment. The Department should not
maintain them until September 1.  The International Rescue Committee in
Montreal later accepted the students' version of the affair.  "Mr.
Pickersgill, in a generous mood, invited hundreds of Hungarian University
students to Canada on a somewhat nebulous promise that they could continue
their education here. Upon their arrival, however, many unforeseen
difficulties cropped up and it appeared that the promises would be
extremely difficult to implement for technical and even political reasons."



Peter I. Hidas

Hungarian Studies
Department Of Russian and Slavic Studies
McGill University
Montreal, Quebec, Canada

At 12:28 PM 3/13/96 +1000, George Antony wrote:

>They are much keener on fighting against the mythical
>'liberalism' (which they use in the US rather than the European sense) and
>each other than against the political left.

        I would like to have a good description of what we mean by American
type of "liberalism." Do we mean something like a club of "bleeding hearts,"
whose members think that by throwing government money at problems will solve
them? Also, those people who think that the right is always on the side of
the poor and downtrodden?

>While the extreme left has been safely quarantined in
>the Workers' Party, the creation of the Csurkist Party of Justice and Life
>did not do the trick on the right.

        I would not be so optimistic about the left's position within the
Workers' Party. See the so-called Baloldali Tomorules (Leftist Cluster)
within the MSZP. I read a few interview with Tamas Krausz and I find his
ideology not terribly far from the those in the Workers' Party.

>They [the right] still use
>the pre-war, reject-Trianon, return-the-minority-territories-to-Hungary manner
,
>and have an exclusive concept of Hungarianness vis-a-vis Jews and Gypsies.
>This allows the extreme right an ideological foothold within the centre.

        I have a wonderful story about the plight of Gypsies in Hungary. My
relatives and I went to eat in a very nice little restaurant: excellent
food, low prices. Plus we were special guests because the building in which
the restaurant is located is owned by my relatives. We arrived and I
discovered that ALL tables were reserved already. I was practically ready to
leave when the owner of the restaurant arrived, took off one of the cards,
saying Reserved, and behold, we had our table. I was told later by my
relatives that the owners of most restaurants use this device in case a
Gypsy family would like to use their services! Mind you there was just
lately a court case involving a beer parlor whose owner refused to serve a
Gypsy! In the same town.

>If the Socialists manage to turn around the economy to the extent that people
>in the street begin perceiving financial or, at least psychological, dividends
,
>they preserve themselves in power by default.

        Quite!

        Eva Balogh

Hi--
I'm wondering if anyone out there knows of any software for use by people
translating from English to Hungarian? A relative of mine does this and
would greatly appreciate any info.
Thanks,
Marc Spiegler

At 10:14 AM 3/13/96 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:

>        I have a wonderful story about the plight of Gypsies in Hungary. My
>relatives and I went to eat in a very nice little restaurant: excellent
>food, low prices. Plus we were special guests because the building in which
>the restaurant is located is owned by my relatives. We arrived and I
>discovered that ALL tables were reserved already. I was practically ready
>to leave when the owner of the restaurant arrived, took off one of the
>cards, saying Reserved, and behold, we had our table. I was told later by
>my relatives that the owners of most restaurants use this device in case a
>Gypsy family would like to use their services! Mind you there was just
>lately a court case involving a beer parlor whose owner refused to serve a
>Gypsy! In the same town.

What a despicable practice!

Can I assume that you chewed out your relatives for allowing such practices
to happen in a building they own?  Or, could you understand their right to
make a living?

Anyway, next time I'm in Hungary I'll make sure that I don't eat in a
restaurant where all the tables are "reserved".

Joe Szalai

Dr. Laszls Bollyky (fax: 203-967-4845) is planning to send a broadcast-fax to
all Hungarian churches and orgnizations asking them to collect signatures to
the attached form-letter, which they would then mail to President Clinton and
Senator Dole. I am distributing the proposed text for two reasons:

1) So that if you agree with the letter's intent and content, you too might
collect signatures to it.
2) If you feel that either its format or its content should be modified, you
might let me know.

Best regards: Bela Liptak

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX


Dear Mr. President (Senator),

In connection with the 1996 elections, we the undersigned members of the 1.58
million community of Hungarian Americans would like to learn, that if
elected:

1) Would you demand, that the minority protection acts of the 1920 Trianon
and 1947 Paris Peace Treaties, which the United States guaranteed, be
enforced? These treaties would require, that Hungary's neighbors return the
schools and church properties of the Hungarian national communities in their
states, and guarantee the free use of Hungarian language, education and
cultural autonomy of these communities.

2) Would you support the elimination of the visa requirement for Hungarians?

3) Would you honor the memory of the over 1000 Hungarian voluteers who fought
against slavery in the American Unionist Army in 1861 and would you also
honor the memory of the Hungarian Freedom Fighters, who mortally wounded
Communism in 1956, by declaring the 23rd of October "Hungarian Heroes Day"?

Respectfully yours,

Addresses and signatures

E. Balogh wrote:

>>They are much keener on fighting against the mythical
>>'liberalism' (which they use in the US rather than the European sense) and
>>each other than against the political left.
>
>        I would like to have a good description of what we mean by American
>type of "liberalism." Do we mean something like a club of "bleeding hearts,"
>whose members think that by throwing government money at problems will solve

I guess there was a debate about this on the Forum. As far as I remember the
conclusion was that the 'liberalism' in the US means something similar to
the europian 'social-democrat'.

>them? Also, those people who think that the right is always on the side of
>the poor and downtrodden?

This is an interesting sentence. This question can be asked also like:
'...those people who think that the right is always on the side of the
minority?' You can substitute anything to the minority, gypsie, african
american, gays, etc. And try to apply this question for yourself (just
for the fun) and see what would you answer. If you answer yes why don't
you answer the same about the poors?

>        I have a wonderful story about the plight of Gypsies in Hungary. My
>relatives and I went to eat in a very nice little restaurant: excellent
>food, low prices. Plus we were special guests because the building in which
>the restaurant is located is owned by my relatives. We arrived and I
>discovered that ALL tables were reserved already. I was practically ready to
>leave when the owner of the restaurant arrived, took off one of the cards,
>saying Reserved, and behold, we had our table. I was told later by my
>relatives that the owners of most restaurants use this device in case a
>Gypsy family would like to use their services! Mind you there was just
>lately a court case involving a beer parlor whose owner refused to serve a
>Gypsy! In the same town.

Now, I guess this a typical example what would be called 'csusztatas, fel-
igazsag' in hungarian. (something like half-true or just transforming the
truth to support a lie, I guess it is not rare in the US,too.) My mother
happened to work at the BVV (Belvarosi Vendeglatoipari Vallalat) later
called Taverna Szalloda es Vendeglatoipari Vallalat (~a kind of hotal
and restaurant chain) for years. I have a pretty good idea and experience
with the internal life of hungarian restuarants. True they put 'Reserved'
card very often on tables, however not always and everywhere, probably to
filter the guests and also to control where they sit. This tool is usually
used in more 'elegant' restaurants. But to say this is for prevent to have
gypsie guest (primarily!!!) that is ,let us say politely, 'enyhen szubjektiv
ertelmezese az igazsagnak'. I have never heard this explanation however I
have known a lots of waiters and waitresses. Many of them were gypsie, I guess
it could have been an interesting experience to see a gypsie waiter(ress)
to throw out a gypsie family because their ethnicity.
Why do you want to show more terrible picture of the hungarian everyday life
than it is, Eva? What will be the next, the pictograms on the hungarian
public transportation that urge to give your seats to the elderly are for
prevent the gypsie youngs to sit or what else?

Janos

J.Szalai wrote:

>>        I have a wonderful story about the plight of Gypsies in Hungary. My
>>relatives and I went to eat in a very nice little restaurant: excellent
>>food, low prices. Plus we were special guests because the building in which
>>the restaurant is located is owned by my relatives. We arrived and I
>>discovered that ALL tables were reserved already. I was practically ready
>>to leave when the owner of the restaurant arrived, took off one of the
>>cards, saying Reserved, and behold, we had our table. I was told later by
>>my relatives that the owners of most restaurants use this device in case a
>>Gypsy family would like to use their services! Mind you there was just
>>lately a court case involving a beer parlor whose owner refused to serve a
>>Gypsy! In the same town.
>
>What a despicable practice!
>
>Can I assume that you chewed out your relatives for allowing such practices
>to happen in a building they own?  Or, could you understand their right to
>make a living?

Good question! :-)

>Anyway, next time I'm in Hungary I'll make sure that I don't eat in a
>restaurant where all the tables are "reserved".

Just ignore the 'Reserved' cards. Otherwise you may remain hungry not just
hungarian (or Canadian or whatever). :-)

Janos

Janos Zsargo, quoting me:

>I was told later by my
>>relatives that the owners of most restaurants use this device in case a
>>Gypsy family would like to use their services! Mind you there was just
>>lately a court case involving a beer parlor whose owner refused to serve a
>>Gypsy! In the same town.
>
>Now, I guess this a typical example what would be called 'csusztatas, fel-
>igazsag' in hungarian.

        Well, it wasn't me who came to the conclusion about the real purpose
of these reserved tables. In fact, I am too naive to assume that this was
the reason. I was told by the people I was with. If they told me
"half-truth" it is their half-truth, not mine.

>My mother
>happened to work at the BVV (Belvarosi Vendeglatoipari Vallalat) later
>called Taverna Szalloda es Vendeglatoipari Vallalat (~a kind of hotal
>and restaurant chain) for years. I have a pretty good idea and experience
>with the internal life of hungarian restuarants. True they put 'Reserved'
>card very often on tables, however not always and everywhere, probably to
>filter the guests and also to control where they sit. This tool is usually
>used in more 'elegant' restaurants.

        Well, this was not a more elegant restaurant. It was a III. class
restaurant: kisvendeglo. Moreover, I find the whole practice--even if
innocent--odd. I have never seen all tables reserved in an American
restaurant. Have you?

>Why do you want to show more terrible picture of the hungarian everyday life
>than it is, Eva?

        Here, we are back at what should be said and what should not be said
about conditions in Hungary. I am against cover-ups, whether it is here or
there.

>What will be the next, the pictograms on the hungarian
>public transportation that urge to give your seats to the elderly are for
>prevent the gypsie youngs to sit or what else?

Well, this is a ridiculous statement and you know it.

Eva Balogh

At 06:50 PM 3/12/96 -0500, Sam Stowe wrote:

>P.S. -- By the way, St. Paul, I thought the whole intent of this peace,
>love and understanding stuff you wave like the bloody flag is supposed to
>be centered on inclusiveness. So when are you going to include someone
>else in that group of people who have sensibilities as exquisite as yours?
>Right now, that subset appears to contain, ta da!, no one but Joe Szalai.

That's the point, Sam.  Now, if you'd ease up on the Prozac, and read, or
re-read, parts of Nietzsche, you'd understand why he wrote, "So long as you
are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of
another".

Joe Szalai

Balogh wrote:

> At 12:28 PM 3/13/96 +1000, George Antony wrote:
> >They [the right] are much keener on fighting against the mythical
> >'liberalism' (which they use in the US rather than the European sense) and
> >each other than against the political left.
>
>         I would like to have a good description of what we mean by American
> type of "liberalism." Do we mean something like a club of "bleeding hearts,"
> whose members think that by throwing government money at problems will solve
> them? Also, those people who think that the right is always on the side of
> the poor and downtrodden?

Well, I may be sticking my neck out, considering your requirement of a 'good
description'.  As others have pointed out, such explanations have been
provided before, so I only aim at presenting a subjective perception of the
issue.

The (Western) European political language uses liberalism in the sense of
political pluralism, tolerance and diversity: as in 'liberal democracy'.
Parties that claim to be Liberal (note the capital L) tend to be in the
political centre, emphasizing free-market economic policies and a generally
low (but not zero) role for governments.

Whereas it seems to me that in the US liberal became a pejorative term,
pretty well along your lines above, to describe the left of the US political
spectrum.  As there are no real commies in the US (except for that dozen in
the Communist Party of the USA), kicking the liberal can has taken over from
kicking the communist can as the pastime of the political right.

In Hungary an interesting situation arose in that the Liberal parties see
themselves in European political terms, while the right attacks them from the
standpoint of US political philosophy.  Which makes you wonder about the
influence on the right by expatriate Hungarians in the US, unless of course
my perception is unduly distorted by the debates on the Hungarian-language
discussion list FORUM.

> >While the extreme left has been safely quarantined in
> >the Workers' Party, the creation of the Csurkist Party of Justice and Life
> >did not do the trick on the right.
>
>         I would not be so optimistic about the left's position within the
> Workers' Party. See the so-called Baloldali Tomorules (Leftist Cluster)
> within the MSZP. I read a few interview with Tamas Krausz and I find his
> ideology not terribly far from the those in the Workers' Party.

Sure, but as long as they are a minority within the Socialist Party, they
are bound by party discipline and have much less scope for running amok all
over the political landscape than they would as a separate party.

George Antony

At 04:10 PM 3/13/96 -0500, Janos Zsargo wrote:

>Just ignore the 'Reserved' cards. Otherwise you may remain hungry not just
>hungarian (or Canadian or whatever). :-)

No Janos.  I will not ignore the "Reserved" tables at restaurants.  I am
sure that a lot of Hungarian restaurants depend on the tourist trade.  I
will do whatever I can to alert anyone who is going to Hungary to boycott
those restaurants that use "Reserved" tables to prevent gypsies from eating
in their establishment.  If the restauranteurs don't understand that that
kind of discrimination is unacceptable perhaps they'll understand the
meaning of bankruptcy.

Joe Szalai

part 6.

On January 8, 1957, the Soproners landed in Canada at St. John, New
Brunswick. They spent eleven days there, due to an unexpected delay caused
by a railway strike. They left for Montreal on January 19 where they were
joined by the twenty fellow-students who had missed the train in Salzburg
and were transported to Montreal after the departure of the main group. The
foresters,  continued their travel by train, affectionately called the
"Freedom Train," to British Columbia. There were formal receptions in
Montreal and Ottawa. Many enthusiastic Canadians went to greet the refugees
at various stops. On January 24 the Freedom Train pulled in to the train
station at Matsqui. The group was bused to the nearby Air Force base in
Abbotsford where they were settled temporarily until they could be moved to
the Powell River workers' camp. During their stay in Abbotsford the
professors formed an Advisory Board to organize the curriculum, to assign
teaching posts and to negotiate with the University of British Columbia
concerning programs and degrees to be awarded. The students began English
classes, visited Vancouver and relaxed after their long voyage. Four weeks
after their arrival in Abbotsford the Soproners moved  to the Powell River
Company lumber camp. AT first the residents of Powell River were inimical
to this movement but due to the exemplary conduct of the refugees, reported
Laval Fortier to the Acting Minister of Immigration, were soon won over.
The refugees made every effort to help themselves and accepted charity only
when absolutely necessary. They organized a Hungarian Night  at the Town
Hall and took up a silver collection that they donated to the Powell River
Athletic Club. As in Abbotsford, the major activity at the camp in Powell
River was the daily eight-hour English language study program. The
Soproners were also encouraged to look for temporary work.

        Both the students and the professors had a difficult time obtaining
summer jobs. The hoped for assistance from the lumber industry never
materialized. Economic slowdown during the summer of 1957 and labour union
sentiments against providing the Soproners with jobs demoralized the group.
Most of the students eventually accepted unwanted jobs which were hard to
fill with Canadian labour. The term "choker-men" became a familiar term
among the students, denoting the low-level forestry jobs where
opportunities for advancement began and usually ended. Some of the more
fortunate ones found better jobs at other places not related to forestry.
In most cases, the wages were very low. The members of the staff fared even
worse.

        The lumber camp served the Soproners from February 20 to September
15, 1957. In September the students and the faculty with their families
were offered temporary housing in the military barracks at the Sea Island
Air Force base. The Dean of the Hungarians and his Advisory Committee began
planning for their first academic year in Canada. The Committee hired
additional staff members to fill positions required to complete the
school's staff. Most of the instruction was to be given in Hungarian; an
advantage at first but later, a steep price had to be paid. The isolation
of the Forestry Group from the mainstream at the University of British
Columbia also resulted in the downgrading of the diplomas to a Bachelor of
Science in Forestry instead of an engineering diploma.  The future,
nevertheless, looked promising in September 1957 to the Sopron forestry
students despite the fact that the new Conservative government of John
Diefenbaker was not willing to provide the Sopron group "with the support
promised by the previous administration. The promised aid was to consist of
a government grant in case there were no other funds available to sustain
the operation of the Sopron Division."   To avoid direct federal support,
the Conservative government went in search of funds. In August 1957, David
Fulton, the Acting Minister of Immigration and Citizenship, who in November
1956 said that Canada should offer "immediate and unrestricted asylum" to
refugees forced to flee from Hungary because of Soviet aggression,
planned a visit to Vancouver to make an appeal  for assistance to some of
the lumber interests in British Columbia. Jack Pickersgill, now in
opposition, later appealed to  Ellen Fairclough, the new Minister of
Citizenship and Immigration for the continuation of government assistance
for the students. Eventually, each student received $65 per month with
assurances that this aid would continue until May 1958.    In March 1959
the government was still paying. The Department of Citizenship sent a check
for $84,000 to U.B.C.   The dismantling of the Hungarian Forestry School,
recently adopted by British Columbia with great domestic and international
fanfare,  would have tarnished the image of  the new government at home and
abroad.

        The first year proved to be the most difficult both academically
and socially for the Soproners. Fifty-one of the Forestry Group's 191
students abandoned their studies during the 1957/58 academic year. The
Hungarian Forestry School was maintained for four years. In 1958 the staff
was reduced to 20,  to 13 a year later, and, finally, to seven during the
last year of the school's existence. The Sopron Division's last official
function was the graduation of the class of 1961, 23 students, and the
School's closing ceremony.

        In Montreal the Sopron mining and technical students encountered a
problem. The Technical Group comprised 124 persons instead of the 110 for
whom arrangements had been made in Toronto. Professor Vecsey, spokesman for
the group claimed that the extra 14 students had been told by the Minister
in Vienna that they could come to Canada and join the group. The professor
insisted that if the entire group of 124 were not allowed to continue to
Toronto from Montreal to take advantage of the offer from the University of
Toronto, then none of the students would proceed. Pickersgill denied that
he had made any commitment to these students while he was in Vienna and Dr.
Smith  stated that his university had made an arrangement for 110 persons
and it would be very difficult to change the number. He threatened to
reconsider the original offer. Vecsey relented. The tempest in the teapot
was over.


Peter I. Hidas

Hungarian Studies
Department Of Russian and Slavic Studies
McGill University
Montreal, Quebec, Canada

In article >, Joe Szalai
> says:
>
>At 10:14 AM 3/13/96 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:
>
>>        I have a wonderful story about the plight of Gypsies in Hungary. My
>>relatives and I went to eat in a very nice little restaurant: excellent
>>food, low prices. Plus we were special guests because the building in which
>>the restaurant is located is owned by my relatives. We arrived and I
>>discovered that ALL tables were reserved already. I was practically ready
>>to leave when the owner of the restaurant arrived, took off one of the
>>cards, saying Reserved, and behold, we had our table. I was told later by
>>my relatives that the owners of most restaurants use this device in case a
>>Gypsy family would like to use their services! Mind you there was just
>>lately a court case involving a beer parlor whose owner refused to serve a
>>Gypsy! In the same town.
>
>What a despicable practice!
[snip]

Joe,

Shock! Horror!

If you (and others) think this despicable, let it be known that it
is very common in Britain (and most of the world, I suspect!)
Discrimination (on grounds of race, creed, gender, disability, and
most other things) is supposed to be illegal, nevertheless, it is
common to see signs in the windows of pubs stating *No Travellers* (i.e.,
gipsies, or *new age* mobile people.)

Seeing most tables reserved and/or being refused a table in a restaurant
for any average person (gipsy, or not) is very common practice here today:
the owners allow in who they feel like. (Depending on where you go, if you
look *well-dressed* and *well-off* you'll get in. After all, running a
*joint* is about running a business.)

I remember the days (in the '50s) when window adverts for accommodation
in London included the stipulations *No Blacks* or *No Irish*! Publicly
posting discriminatory stuff about blacks, Irish, etc, (except gipsies,
apparently) could meet with a lawsuit nowadays (if not start a riot),
though such discrimination is still just as rife as it ever was, but in a
less public way! When an unwelcome *ethnic* goes into a WASP establishment,
that establishment simply refuses to serve the *ethnic* by ignoring the
person(s)!

Of course, there is the (valid IMHO) argument that one should be free
to serve, or not serve, anybody one chooses. It's less hypocritical
that way.

Anyway, isn't this sort of thing pretty universal, wherever one is?
If you don't *fit in*, for whatever reason, you'll be discriminated
against. Has the US deep south really changed much since the '60s?
Of course, there is discrimination everywhere, against all sorts of
people, but Hungary, in my experience (albeit limited to visits over
the last fifteen years and I'm not fluent in the language) is certainly
not worse than any other country I've been to and seems a lot better
than most. (This issue cropped up about a month or two ago, I remember,
and I made a posting or two, accordingly.)

I'm just suspicious of the seemingly sanctimonious comments and
apparent surprise at relating so-called amusing stories about this
sort of discrimination. Surely you haven't lived such sheltered lives
that it can be called *amusing* or *despicable*? Please correct me
if I'm wrong!

Okay, Joe, you wanted some vigorous debate, so let's rock 'n roll! :-)

Regards,

George

George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * Cybernautic address: 
* Independent Commodore Products Users' Group UK * C=64 stuff wanted *
* ACCU ** ARM Club ** Interested in s/h chess books? Ask for my list *

In article >, Joe Szalai
> says:
>
>At 09:18 AM 3/11/96 -0500, Sam Stowe wrote:
>
>>You're going to get a nasty e-mail from our newly self-appointed censor,
>>Martha Bihari. You'd better be a good boy or else. We're not supposed to
>>poke you with a stick any longer.
>
>I guess you scared her off.  I waited for a nasty e-mail but got nothing.
>
>She's not the only self-appointed censor on this newgroup.  There are many.
>Too bad for them that they can't control the agenda.  Too bad that they are
>afraid of a vigorous debate.  Too bad that they wish that this newsgroup
>would be nothing more than a 'folkloric' kind of medium where people could
>ask questions about things Hungarians and they would get 'nice' answers.
>Too bad that they don't want Hungarians to discuss various political,
>historical, or social issues.  Too bad.
[snip]

Sometimes you're too personal in your comments (if I may so so) and
perhaps you deserve a bit of criticism now and again. Who doesn't?
But some people seem not to like ANY criticism at all and seem to take
refutations of their assertions rather badly (damages the image of their
immaculate cult status apparently.)

I like the spirit of this and one or two other recent postings of yours.
Some people on this ng are letting a sense of their own self-importance
get the better of them. Keep posting, man! It's healthy.

Regards,

George

George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * Cybernautic address: 
* Independent Commodore Products Users' Group UK * C=64 stuff wanted *
* ACCU ** ARM Club ** Interested in s/h chess books? Ask for my list *

Dear Sam;
At 12:02 PM 3/10/96 -0500, you wrote:

>In article >, "Eva S. Balogh"
> writes:
>
>> I am not trying to whitewash the Hungarian administration but the
>>so-called Magyarization prior to 1918 has been greatly exaggerated.
>
>I agree whole-heartedly, although that wasn't the gist of my post. My
>point was that even Bourne, the most likely American intellectual to
>question American involvement in the hostilities, was no fan of Hungary.
>As far as Magyarization goes, it was no more sinister than the
>urbanization that swept through this country between 1890-1920. In fact,
>the urbanization process here affected a much greater percentage of the
>population.
>
>Eva, here's a question that may not be exactly your area of expertise, but
>I'll ask it anyway. It seems to me that American attitudes toward Hungary
>in that period leading up to the U.S. entry into the First World War would
>have been less punitive in nature had there been some kind of
>Hungarian-American community to mediate between the two societies. I know
>a lot of Hungarians came here in the latter part of the 1800s, but most
>were working class folks with no time or ability to organize the kind of
>sophisticated political groups we see among, say, German Bundists of the
>period. But there was an earlier group of Hungarians that came here in the
>1840s following the uprising against the Habsburgs. What happened to their
>children and grandchildren? Why weren't they in there trying to re-educate
>the American public in the period before our entry into the war?
>Sam Stowe

Taking my life into my hands (or is it putting it in Sam's hands?), I'm
going to offer a mere opinion on this based upon my own family's familiarity
with this.  Mind you this is but one proposed possible, or partial answer,
and does not try to be the "all."

My grandfather himself was sent to the U.S. in exile, in 1905, and at the
time was trying avoid others whom had worse things in mind for him then mere
exile.  He deliberately looked distant cousins of various branches of his
and his wife's family whom had arrived here as much as two generations
earlier.  His experience--and a letter written by another, different ethnic
background relative entirely confirms that his experience was not
unique--was that of not just ethnic discrimination against Hungarians, but
_racial_ discrimination as well--to the degree that the Ku Klux Klan were
killing and burning known Hungarian homes, businesses and villages/enclaves
well before the turn of the century.

According to my late, _non-Hungarian_, maternal grandmother  when she was a
child in the 1890's, in Illinois, Missouri and Kansas, Hungarians, and
Slavic peoples from Austria-Hungary were called "Bohunks" and "no
respectable white people associated with these dirty non-white foreigners."
They were considered and treated "about the same as Indians whom they were
believed to resemble."  They were not allowed in the same banks, public
places, and in certain jobs, or to live in many neighborhoods.  She also
noted the Klan had tried to get rid of them in many areas.

A few months ago, in the "San Jose Mercury News", a former member of the KKK
from Indiana noted that after the civil war and right up to the 1950's, in
Indiana the KKK treated East Central Europeans the same way they treated
blacks in the South--it was part of the charters.  He was interviewed on the
anniversary of a destruction of a "Bohunk neighborhood" in his former town
early in this century.

A late aunt told me of how gangs of American men and boys would come riding
through the Birmingham neighborhood of Toledo, in earlier years on
horseback, and in later years in cars, periodically shooting up the
neighborhood and tossing torches, and gasoline bombs at people's homes and
businesses.  One Sunday afternoon this happened just as the family was
sitting down to dinner, and she was holding my then baby father in her lap.
As she bent down to feed my father something, one of the bullets passed
through three rooms of the house and right through her scalp.  She wore a
permanent part there for the rest of her life.

In the early 1950's my cousins once showed me an old rusted out sign that
still stood at the edge of Toledo beach, in Ohio that said, "no dogs or
hunkies allowed."  If you wanted to survive in this country before the end
of World War II and you were Hungarian--you didn't stay Hungarian.  Like my
father, if you wanted a hassle free life and maximum opportunities, one
became a "good, white, American" as soon as possible.   Otherwise, you left
the Hungarian ghetto as little as possible, and then only in groups.

My grandparents said when I asked them, "the majority of people weren't
interested in listening to us.  They had already made up their minds,
despite Kossuth."  You may also remember that Kossuth did not stay in the
U.S.--neither did others.  Their initial welcome had not really extended
beyond as Mark Twain described it for another people, "the minority of
gentlemen and gentlewomen."  My grandfather wasn't originally planning to
stay, either.

Finally, some of these attitudes lasted in some people past World War II.
When my parents got married, it was years before my mother's family accepted
the marriage; and as late as 1959, one uncle of mine even said to our faces
(when my parents weren't around) that my sister and I were "half-breed
bastards that never should have been born." We had been left in my maternal
aunt's care (this was her husband) while my parents engaged in a lengthy
process of moving the family from Ohio to California.  My uncle had
literally tried to starve us to death, and had kept us confined to either a
small room or a dog run, nearly the entire time--so we "wouldn't be seen by
the decent people who were (his) resort's guests."  Some negative attitudes
toward Hungarians even can be found in some areas today--I ran into some in
both the Chicago area and the West side of Toledo just last year--and was
very surprised, indeed.

Please, again, bear in mind, this is only one opinion, based upon personal
experiences and research.  Don't bite too hard, please.  :-)

Sincerely,


Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA, USA
e-mail: 

N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Dear Johanne;
At 08:32 AM 3/10/96 -0400, you wrote:

>Kedves Balogh Eva!
>
>At 08:50 09/03/96 -0800, Eva Balogh wrote:
>
>>
>>        It is very possible that in case of Soros, antisemitism is not the
>>main thread, but I think it is a mistake to equate antisemitism only with
>>MIEP's supporters. I just returned from Hungary and I find that there is a
>>certain preoccupation with questions of Jews and Jewishness in general. On
>>both sides; that is, the left as well as the right. I have met old
>>acquaintances from both camps and it never failed: sometime during the
>>conversation the role of the Jews in Hungarian cultural and political life
>>was inevitably mentioned. And not favorably. Call it what you
>>wish--antisemitism or not--but I think that the SZDSZ is doomed because both
>>sides consider it a Jewish party and therefore not acceptable.
>
>Do you think that this is a symptom of the old common tendency, especially
>visible in the past in Germany and Russia, of people to use the Jews as
>scapegoats for their problems? In the case of Hungary, are the people
>looking for an identifiable group that they can blame for the economic
>problems of the country?
>
>I know relatively little about the history of Hungary since 1920, but I have
>always understood that the Jews were accepted there as Hungarians and
>recognized themselves as Hungarians, and that they therefore had much more
>freedom, faced much less persecution than elsewhere and therefore were able
>to make outstanding contributions to Hungarian society. Would you agree with
>this? Was there actually a lot of resentment against the Jews all along that
>was just masked?
>
>It is my impression that the only era in which the Jews in Hungary were
>actually persecuted was the latter part of WWII. If that is so, why did the
>Hungarians, who I presume had resisted the pressure to round up the Jews
>earlier, succumb to the pressure at that time, when after the Battle of
>Stalingrad it must have become increasingly obvious that the Germans were
>going to go down in flames?
>
>Would it be fair to say that there is a larger population of people of
>Jewish heritage today in Hungary than in other countries of Eastern Europe?
>How would the population compare with that in the countries of Western Europe?
>
>>>On the subject of Csurka I have a question: now that the "kuruc" and "labanc
"
>>>wings of MDF parted ways, will Lezsa1k embrace him? I think I read something
>>>to the effect that he wants to make MDF more open in that direction.
>>
>>        That's my hunch.
>>
>>        Eva Balogh
>
>OK, who is Csurka, who is Lezsa'k, and what are the "kuruc" and "labanc"
>wings of the MDF?
>
>How long has it been since you visited Hungary? I would be interested to
>know what your impressions are of the changes since you were there last? You
>were quite upset about Bokros's resignation. Having now been there, do you
>still feel as pessimistic as you did before you left?
>
>I would love to read your comments.
>
>Nagyon sze'pen ko:szo:no:m,
>
I'm going to take a stab at answering this one, based upon my acquaintance
with several groups of Hungarians.  I don't believe there was a large amount
of anti-semitism before the end of World War I.  Here is why.

A large amount of the Hungarian American population in several northeastern
cities arrived before and during World War I.  Among these people,
anti-semitism is rare (although not non-existent).  It greatly increases in
another group of people--those who became young adults in the 1920's to 1939
and was helped, I've learned (from people who were involved in the
"education process"--as "students") by the Nazi youth groups in Germany who
arranged "boy/girl scout exchanges," assistance programs (in setting up
youth groups, providing materials and programs, etc.).  As the economy
worsened between 1919-1939, German propaganda sounded pretty good, also--and
many, many people had acquired German as a second language in the schools,
despite the fact Hungary was no longer joined to Austria, or officially
allied with Germany.

The tendencies encouraged by Germany were worsened when it was noted that
some of the Bela Kun administration themselves claimed to be Jewish.  I've
heard (and find it hard to believe) that almost all of the Bela Kun
communists were Jewish.  The excesses of that regime--whether real or
propagandized by Horthy--were then tied together with "Jewishness" further
by propaganda of Germanophiles, who also tended to be anti-socialist.  With
all the indoctrination that was going on both from inside and outside of
Hungary combined with the economic conditions at the time, I don't think it
is terribly surprising given the frailty of human nature that anti-semitism
spread and became a problem.  I am glad to say, however, that not everyone
who started out anti-semitic in this period stayed this way.  However, I do
find more of this still in Hungarians (and sometimes their children) who
were living in Hungary between the wars, than in any other "generational
period."

There is some anti-semitism in the post WWII generation also.  When I asked
about this from some people who were unabashedly so, one answer I got rather
a lot was a complex answer involving several thoughts.  First, that people
were disgusted by the Jews playing themselves up as greater victims than
other Hungarians and forgetting a large resistance group that had existed
and suffered (the Holocaust Memorial does mention this and notes a massacre
of resistance that occurred about May 15, 1944--and that this massacre had
to take place before the German Nazis could get at the Hungarian Jews;
however, there are no lists of names of resistance--and families who were
killed as there are similar lists of not only Jewish people, but people of
other nations).  Second, that the Jews themselves since World War II have
constantly reminded the world--including Hungarians--of their victim status
and have not gone beyond that, and have themselves separated themselves from
other Hungarians.  Hungarians find this particularly hurtful because, they
insist, they were/are willing to think of Jewish Hungarians as just other
Hungarians and Hungarians generally did not want the Holocaust and tried to
prevent it in Hungary, yet Hungarians seem to be treated by the Jewish
people today as just Germans under another label.  Third, is an element of
envy; the Jews on account of their victimhood were able to have the West
restore Israel to them, while Hungarians are still allowed to suffer as
persecuted minorities in Romania, Slovakia, and Serbia--and again, the Jews,
even Jewish Hungarians are believed to be doing nothing to help stop this
oppression.  This ties in with reason number 2.

However, in general, the "third generation" (post war) anti-semitism seems
to be rooted more in a sense of hurt, betrayal and surprise than in a belief
that Jewish Hungarians are not Hungarian, or are an inferior race or some
such nonsense.  The post war economy hasn't helped for this generation, either.

By the way, I'm not anti-semitic, and I am merely trying to relay what I've
observed and heard, because I have been concerned about this situation, both
in terms of what it does to divide Hungarians from one another--and in terms
of how it damages the image of Hungarians in the United States.

The U.S. is unargueably the most powerful and richest nation in the world.
If any nation wishes political respect and friendliness, military
protection, and/or financial assistance from the U.S.--and/or its allies,
then that nation must be concerned about the degree to which its values and
image conform to what the U.S. itself imagines its own best ideals and
practices.--One can't lobby for a perceived bunch of facists, or hard-line
communists in the U.S. and get much sympathy--much less help.  Sorry folks,
but that's simply the way it is.

Sincerely,


Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA, USA
e-mail: 






N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Dear Randy;

At 08:35 PM 3/10/96 +0000, you wrote:

>I was offered this email address as a posting forum for genealogical
>information. Upon watching the political mail war, I am beginning to
>wonder if,in fact, I was given the right address at all.

Yes and no.  This is a discussion group, and it will discuss almost
anything.  There have been a few items posted previously that relate to
genealogy, mostly asking about a particular company that does research in
several East Central European countries.  There may be some other group that
confines itself to Hungarian genealogy.  If so, I am unaware of it, but then
I'm fairly new to this group, myself and someone else may know more.  There
are some history majors/minors here, though, and possibly others besides
myself have genealogy as a hobby.

>I will continue to watch to see if anything other than debate
>surfaces. Whereas I can certainly appreciate your knowledge on such
>topics, I can only assume that I am a much simpler man.
>As you continue to debate man's atrocities, I will continue searching
>for my family heritage and record man's joys.
>Randy and Linda (Gillotti) Bruner


I like that comment. I might be able to help a little on the family history.
>
>Searching for Randy: BRUNER,PETTIT,GABOR,LATHOM,LEEP,KEY,
>MAYES,NORMAN,LIGHTFOOT,SYDOR,BARFIELD,SLISHER,SCHLEIPFER
>
At least some branches of the Gabor family can be found in the southwestern
Hungarian counties of Somogy and Zala.  I suspect others are in the
northeast around Nyireghaza.  A lot of families who resettled (the Turks
rather did a number on this region) the Dunantul (Transdanubian counties of
Somogy, Zala, and Tolna) came from either the northeast-central Hungary
around Nyireghaza and Hatvan, or from near Gyor in the far north.  The
branches I know of lived primarily in central and north central Somogy
county in various small villages and towns.

Lightfoot is often, but not always, a Native American surname.  Remember the
songwriter, Gordon Lightfoot?

Mayes families can/could be found in Virginia, Kentucky and Tennessee--and
Lord knows where else before these.

>for Linda:GILLOTTI, FUSCI, TOMAINO, CASALE, ROCCO,
>DE GRAZIA, BONONE, FIORITO
>
>and who knows what else......
>
When you find a town and county for any ancestor, you might consider
backtracking from that known place in the LDS microfilms--which are sorted
by  country, then state, then county, then town-parish.  They microfilmed
all the parish records in several countries, and civil registers, also.
They also have a huge library collection of family histories, diaries, Bible
records, bound civil registers, etc. that are not all on microfilm, in Salt
Lake City, Utah.  If you are close to an LDS (Latter Day Saints--Mormons)
church/library, you can order copies of the microfilms to examine in the
local library.  They have microfiche indices to the films.  Often the local
LDS libraries have some books as well.  By the way, no, I'm _not_ a Mormon.
Their genealogical collections are open to everyone, regardless of creed.

Good luck in your search!

Sincerely,

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA, USA
e-mail: 

N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Cecelia,
You are kind to write to me. thank you for your encouragement. I plan
on staying with this Hugarian Discussion group for a while longer. It
seems to me the only plausible place on the Internet to be able to
find help on my GABOR research.
Such as the inforamtion you furnished. I now feel I have atleast
somewhere I can go in that big country.
And your comment about genealogy being a hobby...it seems it is a
hobby you have certainly perfected.
I have printed out the information you sent so I can reread it
several times and ask a few questions of my grandmother (GABOR).
Maybe one of these towns or areas will spark her memory of where her
father was born.
Take care of yourself and thanks again for writing
Randy

J. Szalai wrote:

>No Janos.  I will not ignore the "Reserved" tables at restaurants.  I am
>sure that a lot of Hungarian restaurants depend on the tourist trade.  I
>will do whatever I can to alert anyone who is going to Hungary to boycott
>those restaurants that use "Reserved" tables to prevent gypsies from eating
>in their establishment.  If the restauranteurs don't understand that that
>kind of discrimination is unacceptable perhaps they'll understand the
>meaning of bankruptcy.
>
>Joe Szalai

Fine. At least such situation will be avoided when some backpacker is
refused to be served by a gypsie waiter(ress). Bon voyage to Hungary
and do not forget to pack some food!

Au revoir
Janos