Here in Australia we have similar problems. The federal government has control 
of Medicare and only doctors who have a Medicare number can have their fees rei
mbursed by Medicare. Now the government has decided that there are too many doc
tors in private practice and with fewer doctors they can put a lid on costs. So
 they have decided that the number of doctors given Medicare numbers will be li
mited. It is just unfortunate that students after six years of university study
 followed by one year internship and one year residency find themselves unable 
to set themselves up in private practice.
At the same time smaller country towns have the greatest problems attracting an
d keeping general practicioners.

Regards
Dénes 



----------
From:  Joe Szalai[SMTP:]
Sent:  Monday, 10 March 1997 22:17
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: US & Canadian Health Cares

At 01:18 PM 3/7/97 -0500, Andy Kozma wrote:

<snip>
>>JoE:as a fellow ontarrian,and liberal,We have to look sensibly at these
>closing.
>It is impossible to have so many hospitals,wich are virtualy giving the same
>services.There is tremendous overhead,and with fewer hospitals,lets hope we
>will still have the same services.
>I would rather point the fingers at the hospitals themselves who believed we
>can afford this for ever.There is less and less mony,not only because of the
>30%tax cut.
>My wife is an RN,at Mount Sianai hospital.One of the finest,and best.(not
>because she workes there),but there thinking is patient care.
>Lets be reasonable,and lets see realy what will happen.For a change I have
>to agree with the Comission,whose job was,to cut,but at the same time,ensure
>the best care possible.
>Lets hope so Joe.
>Andy.

Andy,

You have more faith in the Commission, that's going around the province
closing hospitals, than some of the members of the Conservative party.  You
know that last week, in the Ontario legislature, six Conservatives, AND the
speaker of the house, voted with the opposition to stop the Commission from
closing any more hospitals.  And no doubt you've heard some of the horror
stories, such as a patient who was dead on a stretcher in a hospital in
Peterborough and the nursing staff was too busy to notice.  Faith is a good
thing in religion but it has little use in medicine.

I'm not saying that the system can't be improved, but closing 30 per cent of
the hospitals in Toronto, and many others across the province, is too fast
and too rash.  People will suffer and that's not the way our medical care
should work.

Joe Szalai

Eva S. Balogh wrote:
>
> At 10:16 AM 3/10/97 -0500, Andy Kozma wrote:
>
> >>What else could you expect from him?Remeber Angyalfold?
> >I just do not understand with his backround how the heck he can be a Dole
> >supporter,and at the same time write about the Clinton's close to slanderous
> >remarks.I might even send his notes to them.
> >Andy.
>
>         Slanderous? Did you read what he had to say about Hillary Clinton
> and Elena Ceusescu?
>
>         Eva
Before this came, I was going to ask "near slenderous?!!!".
But, Andy, SHAME ON YOU because of Angyalfvld. As I already wrote,
I am not from there. But I percieve remarks like this disgusting.
They give the impression, there is cynical misanthropy behind.
There are plenty of honest Hungarians, Jews, Germans, Serbs,...
living there, the vast majority of them law abiding Hungarian citi-
zens AND constituents. I was told again and again, that ONE of the
reasons for electing ex(?!?!)-communists is exactly the display of this
attitude by many from "better addresses".
Miklss

jeliko wrote:
>
> Stephen Szabolcsy writes:
>
> >    So, it is not easy to figure out, how much Canadians pay for their
> >health care system. It changes from province to province and city to city,
> >varies with occupation, property ownership, etc., etc. The overhelming
> >majority would not want to change it.
>
> I am surprised that people are happy with something that they do not how much
> is costing them.
>
> >   My niece, who is a doctor in Kaposvar, Hungary, has visited us last year.
> >My neighbor, who is on the local hospital board, has arranged a whole day
 visit
> >for her. I went along. A Canadian doctor guided us through everything, from
 ad-
> >mission to brain scanning. They could not show her anything new that did not
> >already exists in Kaposvar.
>
> Based on my experiences with the Hungarian hospital system, the above is not
> very complimentary about the Canadian hospital system. (or at least the
> particular example given)
>
> >   I think, the Hungarian health care system could be superior to the North
> >American one, still the mortality rate would stay high for years to come,
> >because of the Hungarian diet, lack of consideration given to preventive
> >medicine (i.e. consumptions of coffee, tobacco, alcohol, drugs, etc.),
> >stress and anxiety under the former political system and now due to job
> >insecurity, and probably for many more reasons.
>
> So both the security and the insecurity are stressful. By any chance are you
> implying that the average American is practicing many preventive measures?
>
> Regards,Jeliko

Like eating junk food?
Regards, Miklss

At 10:15 PM 3/10/97 +0100, Gyorgy Tokody wrote:
>You're wrong, stress and anxiety is much higher under the recent
>political system (in Hungary). Udv: Tokodi Gyorgy

        Well, in that case, you ought to turn the clock back and go back to
the good old system of "existing socialism." I am sure that the death rates
are going to reversed in absolutely no time.

        Eva Balogh

Eva S. Balogh wrote:
>
> At 10:15 PM 3/10/97 +0100, Gyorgy Tokody wrote:
> >You're wrong, stress and anxiety is much higher under the recent
> >political system (in Hungary). Udv: Tokodi Gyorgy
>
>         Well, in that case, you ought to turn the clock back and go back to
> the good old system of "existing socialism." I am sure that the death rates
> are going to reversed in absolutely no time.
>
>         Eva Balogh
I4d like to ask him, WHAT did he mean.
Miklos

Considering the other side of the coin again, a hint :

in the Magyar Nemzet of March 10, 97, there was a report
about a - traditional - conference of young ecomomist in
Hungary : Ethics and Economy". The headline of the report :
"Waiter, charge the bill to the next generation" ( Pincer,
irja a koevetkezoe generacio szamlajara"
szamlajara"

Miklos

I find the recent discussion of NATO expansion fascinating. I see people
making arguments to delineate who is worthy, who is not. the arguments
seem to me to be like a pecking order, trying to reestablish some sort of
hierarchy. My travels and living experiences in Hungary, Romania, and
Slovakia have convinced me that there is a mental perception of a pecking
order, and I am beginning to believe I can see it on this list as well.

One person has argued that they would allow only those that can be solid
members, making contributions to the goals and values or NATO. However,
what are those goals today, the Muslim boogeyman or the guranteeing of a
space that facilitates commerce and trade, allowing further growth in
Europe.

Before we become to hung up in the debate about who should get in first (I
am for allowing them all in, those who want in, simultaneously), let them
decide whether they want in.

Secondly, the person in the Slovak consulate tried to make a geopolitical
point about a line os non-NATO states reaching to Germany, and then
another commented about Switzerland also being neutral. The domino theory
does not work, and nor would NATO allow such a problem to exist
geographically.

Darren Purcell
Program for Instructional Excellence
Department of Geography
Florida State University

At 01:46 PM 3/11/97 +0100, Gyorgy Tokodi wrote:
>Kedves Eva, allitasaid 1/8 resze igaz, 1/8 resze hamis,
>1/4 resze tevedes, 1/2 resze tudatos dezinformalas. Megnyugtat
>viszont, hogy szamolni meg a hvg-forumon elszenvedett
>pofonok ellenere sem tanultal meg, ugyanis Magyarorszagon
>valamivel tobb, mint 40000 orvos van es kb. 10,5 millio lakos.
>Ezt a ket szamot akarhogy osztom egymassal, nem jon ki az
>altalad emlitett 76,9 ratio. Ha elfogadnank ezt a ratiot, az kozel
>130000 orvost feltetelezne, ennyivel pedig mar Mississippit is
>lehet rekeszteni. Legkozelebb, ha tobb idom lesz, majd angolul
>is irok tevedeseidrol es ragalmaidrol, bar remelem a lista tagjainak
>tobbsege beszeli meg ezt a nyelvet. Udv Gyuri

        Well, it seems my source was wrong on the exact ratio between
doctors and number of population. The situation is not that bad (;)): there
are only twice as many doctors in Hungary than in most countries per
population. 247 people for one doctor, as opposed to 520-550 in Canada and
the United States!! Mea culpa!! The exact figures, by the way, in 1994:
10,277,000 people and 41,562 doctors!

        Otherwise I would appreciate if you told the list which 1/8 of my
information is correct, which 1/8 is outright falsification, which 1/4 is
erroneous and which 1/2 is simple disinformation.

        Eva Balogh

Andy Kozma writes:

>>
>>Jeliko:shouldn't I rather send contribution to the Repuclicans?Or Mr Gingrich
?
> Why do they foght each other,instead of running th US?
>Andy.

Andy, as far as I am aware of, it would be illegal for you to contribute to
any US political party or politician because you are not a US citizen.
While, I have not paid too much attention to the details, to my knowledge
Gingrich got into trouble for using political funds to finance a history
course he was teaching.  That was a violation of the rules of the House of
Representatives. Apparently he was told of this violation and igored it and
eventually he was found to be guilty of the violation by the appropriate
subcommittee and fined a large amount. Additionally, some felt that the
history course was too conservative for their liking and that it may have
been politicized. I have not watched any of the lectures (they were also
supplied on videotape to other universities) and do not know wether it is so
or not.

But I did find it ironic that the "crime" was using political funds to
finance teaching of history. I get more upset when compulsory tax payer
funds are used by some historians to miseducate the students.

Regards,Jeliko

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
   URGENT

Background:
  Please help to convince vice president Al Gore to make a statement
in favour for Szigetkoz. Feel free to use the attached new form
letter. Al Gore will only take notice if he receives thousands of
letters. 
  Therefore please send at least one letter every day. Furthermore
PLEASE MAKE A CHAIN LETTER OF THIS CALL FOR ACTION. Send it to
everybody on your personal mailing list and ask them to forward it to
their friends. PLEASE ACT!!

What to do: 
Please ask vice president Al Gore to make a statement in favour for
the environment of Szigetkoz. Feel free to use the attached NEW form
letter. Al Gore  will only take notice if he receives thousands of
letters. 
      SEND SEVERAL LETTERS A DAY!!! PLEASE DO NOT ONLY SEND
      THEM BY E-MAIL!  Send them even by fax or "priority
      mail".  Below are the fax number, and the priority mail
      addresses you should use. 
      In all cases, put the names of _both_ the Vice President
      _and one or another of his key aides_ on the top of the
      fax, or on the envelope address.  

key aides:
Executive Assistant to the Vice President: Heather Marabeti
Deputy Chief of Staff:                        David Strauss
Director of Political Affairs:              Karen Elizabeth Skelton

address of key aides as well as of Al Gore: 
Room 276, Old Executive Office Building
Washington, DC  20501
fax number: 202-456-7044

e-mail address of Al Gore:


*************************************************************

<date>

The Honorable Al Gore
Vice President of the United States
The White House
Washington, DC  20001
(E-Mail:  )

Dear Mr. Vice President:

On August 21, 1993, you wrote to Professor Bela Liptak about
your concern for the Danube ecosystem.  Today humankind is approaching
an important precedent:  On March 3, 1997, the International Court of
Justice will start proceedings in the first international
environmental lawsuit in The Hague.

The ICJ will decide a case involving the Danube and the destruction of
its ancient wetland region, the Szigetkoz.  This name, loosely
translated, means "region of a thousand islands,"  yet today there is
not a single island left there, because the water is gone.  

However, the implications of this case go beyond the future of just
one river or just the 400 endangered species of one ancient ecosystem.
This lawsuit will set a precedent for the whole planet and will answer
a much more basic question:  Do national governments have the right to
do as they please with our ecosystems, or does humankind as a whole
have a right to protect the rich natural treasures which belong to all
of us?

Mr. Vice President, in 1995 nine international environmental NGOs
submitted a memorial to ICJ, which its president, the Honorable
Mohammed Bedjaoui, has accepted.  A Compromise Plan was also submitted
to the Court; this Plan would guarantee the restoration of the ancient
Szigetkoz wetlands, together with fulfilling the water supply,
shipping and energy needs of the region.  For details of this Plan and
for other aspects of the lawsuit, please ask Bela Liptak or visit the
web site at:  http://www.goodpoint.com/duna.htm .

Dear Mr. Gore:  It is very important that the first international
environmental lawsuit be given the media attention it deserves. The
Foundation to Protect the Hungarian Environment can inform you of the
details.  A statement by you can guarantee that attention; please make
such a statement.

Respectfully,

<Your name, title and address>

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
   URGENT

Background:
  Please help to convince vice president Al Gore to make a statement
in favour for Szigetkoz. Feel free to use the attached new form
letter. Al Gore will only take notice if he receives thousands of
letters.
  Therefore please send at least one letter every day. Furthermore
PLEASE MAKE A CHAIN LETTER OF THIS CALL FOR ACTION. Send it to
everybody on your personal mailing list and ask them to forward it to
their friends. PLEASE ACT!!

What to do:
Please ask vice president Al Gore to make a statement in favour for
the environment of Szigetkoz. Feel free to use the attached NEW form
letter. Al Gore  will only take notice if he receives thousands of
letters.
      SEND SEVERAL LETTERS A DAY!!! PLEASE DO NOT ONLY SEND
      THEM BY E-MAIL!  Send them even by fax or "priority
      mail".  Below are the fax number, and the priority mail
      addresses you should use.
      In all cases, put the names of _both_ the Vice President
      _and one or another of his key aides_ on the top of the
      fax, or on the envelope address.

key aides:
Executive Assistant to the Vice President: Heather Marabeti
Deputy Chief of Staff:                        David Strauss
Director of Political Affairs:              Karen Elizabeth Skelton

address of key aides as well as of Al Gore:
Room 276, Old Executive Office Building
Washington, DC  20501
fax number: 202-456-7044

e-mail address of Al Gore:


*************************************************************

<date>

The Honorable Al Gore
Vice President of the United States
The White House
Washington, DC  20001
(E-Mail:  )

Dear Mr. Vice President:

On August 21, 1993, you wrote to Professor Bela Liptak about
your concern for the Danube ecosystem.  Today humankind is approaching
an important precedent:  On March 3, 1997, the International Court of
Justice will start proceedings in the first international
environmental lawsuit in The Hague.

The ICJ will decide a case involving the Danube and the destruction of
its ancient wetland region, the Szigetkoz.  This name, loosely
translated, means "region of a thousand islands,"  yet today there is
not a single island left there, because the water is gone.

However, the implications of this case go beyond the future of just
one river or just the 400 endangered species of one ancient ecosystem.
This lawsuit will set a precedent for the whole planet and will answer
a much more basic question:  Do national governments have the right to
do as they please with our ecosystems, or does humankind as a whole
have a right to protect the rich natural treasures which belong to all
of us?

Mr. Vice President, in 1995 nine international environmental NGOs
submitted a memorial to ICJ, which its president, the Honorable
Mohammed Bedjaoui, has accepted.  A Compromise Plan was also submitted
to the Court; this Plan would guarantee the restoration of the ancient
Szigetkoz wetlands, together with fulfilling the water supply,
shipping and energy needs of the region.  For details of this Plan and
for other aspects of the lawsuit, please ask Bela Liptak or visit the
web site at:  http://www.goodpoint.com/duna.htm .

Dear Mr. Gore:  It is very important that the first international
environmental lawsuit be given the media attention it deserves. The
Foundation to Protect the Hungarian Environment can inform you of the
details.  A statement by you can guarantee that attention; please make
such a statement.

Respectfully,

<Your name, title and address>

At 08:11 PM 3/10/97 -0500, you wrote:
>At 05:24 PM 3/10/97 -0500, Jeliko wrote:
>
>>I am surprised that people are happy with something that they do not how much
>>is costing them.
>
>        It is an amazing thing, isn't it. There are actually educated people
>who think that "they pay nothing" for health care. Others seem to have only
>a vague notion and they all think that it is cheaper than the American. When
>it turns out to be a higher percentage of the Canadian GDP than American
>health care of the American GDP.
>        You see this is what happens when you are not directly responsible
>for certain services you receive.
>
>        Eva Balogh
>
>Eva:I hope you wayched last night episode of Chicago Hope.If not you missed
something about your so called health providers.
I rather be stupid and not avare what I pay for my health insurance,but whar
ever it is I prefer this one.
Andy.
>

Well according to our well informed Clinton basher i am one.Just that you
should no Spicli means informer.
Thank you for this name.I will at the same time inform,this bay books
reader,that as far as I am concerned,I suffered more under the hungarian
communist rule,thae he ever can immagine.
I realise i shouldn't even bother with him,since the only thing what he
tries to do,read Hix,and then transfer it to the hungarian Szabad,
Intention is probably to get some hate going again,but so far,without success.
He does not know he can not hurt me,either calling me a Jew,or an ib\nformer.
Andy.

At 10:16 AM 3/11/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Andy Kozma writes:
>
>>>
>>>Jeliko:shouldn't I rather send contribution to the Repuclicans?Or Mr
Gingrich?
>> Why do they foght each other,instead of running th US?
>>Andy.
>
>Andy, as far as I am aware of, it would be illegal for you to contribute to
>any US political party or politician because you are not a US citizen.
>While, I have not paid too much attention to the details, to my knowledge
>Gingrich got into trouble for using political funds to finance a history
>course he was teaching.  That was a violation of the rules of the House of
>Representatives. Apparently he was told of this violation and igored it and
>eventually he was found to be guilty of the violation by the appropriate
>subcommittee and fined a large amount. Additionally, some felt that the
>history course was too conservative for their liking and that it may have
>been politicized. I have not watched any of the lectures (they were also
>supplied on videotape to other universities) and do not know wether it is so
>or not.
>
>But I did find it ironic that the "crime" was using political funds to
>finance teaching of history. I get more upset when compulsory tax payer
>funds are used by some historians to miseducate the students.
>
>Regards,Jeliko
>
>Jeliko:didn't you suggest to me,I migyt should send some contribution to
Clinton?
Andy.

Andy Kozma inquires:

>>Jeliko:didn't you suggest to me,I migyt should send some contribution to
>Clinton?
>Andy.

No I did not. I mentioned that he may ask for one. I hope you are saner than
sending some.

Regards,Jeliko.

Darren Purcell writes:

>I find the recent discussion of NATO expansion fascinating. I see people
>making arguments to delineate who is worthy, who is not. the arguments
>seem to me to be like a pecking order, trying to reestablish some sort of
>hierarchy. My travels and living experiences in Hungary, Romania, and
>Slovakia have convinced me that there is a mental perception of a pecking
>order, and I am beginning to believe I can see it on this list as well.
>
NATO is not a club that is joined by anyone. I hope, the current members
are selective in who they invite to join, and yes there should be strategic
reasons for asking countries to join. The considerations should be both
political
and military. NATO is not, per se, an economic association and it does not
overlay either the European Union or the Common Market. There are also
committments by those who join NATO and the joint defense of each other's
territorial integrity is one of them. Naturally originally it was set up as
a defense block
contra the Sovietunion. Lately its goals are more murky and its early
behavior in ex-Yugoslavia was not very good.

Joining NATO can be beneficial to the ex satellites for both economic and
military reasons. The CIS currently is not a stable power. Controlling power
can easly change from the current to either far right or far left groups.
Some in both of these
camps are promoting ideas of return to the type of control practiced by the
soviets.
Joining NATO just because others are joining is not necessarily a good
reason, but
if it prevents further polarization, it can be beneficial. But being
purposfully left out can also create additional tension between es satellite
countries. But stability of democracy and the respect for law in any of the
potentially joining countries, should be
and can be a realistic requirement. While I am sure that NATO does not need
additional conflicts like currently exist between Turkey and Greece, at the
time when they joined their strategic location could override the baggage
that came with their membership.
Whether, other countries with similar behavior toward each other are
acceptable or not is for NATO members to decide.

>One person has argued that they would allow only those that can be solid
>members, making contributions to the goals and values or NATO. However,
>what are those goals today, the Muslim boogeyman or the guranteeing of a
>space that facilitates commerce and trade, allowing further growth in
>Europe.

Please remember that NATO is not a solely European organization, thus at
best the
the goals are the result of a set of compromises of the various countries'
interests.
The question for those in should be how far can they compromise the existing
goals and how reliably can they consider a country (as government, as
democracy) to not provoke conflicts which are outside the current framework
of goals. There are many other more realistic possible scenarios than the
Muslim boogeyman. As an example, a change of system in the CIS could result
in massive refugee movement to the west, what would be the result of such an
event? Further warring in the Balkans could be another.


>Before we become to hung up in the debate about who should get in first (I
>am for allowing them all in, those who want in, simultaneously), let them
>decide whether they want in.
>
I disagree for several reasons. First of all the new members have to obey
common
agreed upon issues, like weapons supply to potentially questionable
countries or locations. Such issue is difficult enough to police under
existing conditions and
if a particular government is endorsing a sub rosa operation, it can create a
lot headache for the group later on. Another one is that the population of
the country that requests to join should be under a reasonably democratic
government for some reasonable duration and not a nominal one.


>Secondly, the person in the Slovak consulate tried to make a geopolitical
>point about a line os non-NATO states reaching to Germany, and then
>another commented about Switzerland also being neutral. The domino theory
>does not work, and nor would NATO allow such a problem to exist
>geographically.

Almost correct, but that is not the issue. What I pointed out that an open
road from the Ukrains to Switzerland, because Slovakia is not a member, was
an irrelevant issue, because Switzerland is not a member of NATO either and
neither is France.
At the same time geography is an intrinsic part of military strategy and
consideration for the location of potential new members can be a logical
consideration. It is also important however, that the member countries do
not look on the situation that I am better than you are because I was
admitted while others were not. NATO is not a country club. The question
about the domino theory is more complicated than you indicate it. It does
not work if there is sufficient protection where the dominos lie. That the
theory failed in the past was caused partly by the containment that was
built up around places where the dominos were falling.

For the specific case, I do posit that Slovakia is not at the level of
governmental democracy as Czechia, Poland or Hungary. As far as Romania is
concerned, I am encouraged
by the latest elections, but I would prefer to wait to see if it can last
longer. I would not hesitate about Slovenia, which is a gem among the ex
communist countries.
Croatia, Serbia, Bulgaria, Albania should not even be considered.

Sorry for the verbous reply, but I wanted to debunk the impression that it
is only oneupmanship that is at issue.

Regards,Jeliko.

E.Balogh wrote:

>At 01:46 PM 3/11/97 +0100, Gyorgy Tokodi wrote:
>>Kedves Eva, allitasaid 1/8 resze igaz, 1/8 resze hamis,
>>1/4 resze tevedes, 1/2 resze tudatos dezinformalas. Megnyugtat
>>viszont, hogy szamolni meg a hvg-forumon elszenvedett
>>pofonok ellenere sem tanultal meg, ugyanis Magyarorszagon
>>valamivel tobb, mint 40000 orvos van es kb. 10,5 millio lakos.
>>Ezt a ket szamot akarhogy osztom egymassal, nem jon ki az
>>altalad emlitett 76,9 ratio. Ha elfogadnank ezt a ratiot, az kozel
>>130000 orvost feltetelezne, ennyivel pedig mar Mississippit is
>>lehet rekeszteni. Legkozelebb, ha tobb idom lesz, majd angolul
>>is irok tevedeseidrol es ragalmaidrol, bar remelem a lista tagjainak
>>tobbsege beszeli meg ezt a nyelvet. Udv Gyuri
>
>        Well, it seems my source was wrong on the exact ratio between
>doctors and number of population. The situation is not that bad (;)): there
>are only twice as many doctors in Hungary than in most countries per
>population. 247 people for one doctor, as opposed to 520-550 in Canada and
>the United States!! Mea culpa!! The exact figures, by the way, in 1994:
>10,277,000 people and 41,562 doctors!

Well, it seems Eva knows and frequently practices the old joke:

2x2 = 5 for extremly large values of two.

J.Zs

Dear Readers:

   We are arguing about small problems, while we fail to recognize the large
ones, caused by the common denominator: the Anglo-Saxon view of the world,
adopted by Westerners.
   Just think about it!
   Name a country which was not once an ally of the British and an ennemy at
another time.
   Well?
   Which empire was the the greatest, over which the sun never rested?
   Which empire used African slaves for plantations in the New World, when
slavery was stamped out in Europe many centuries before?
   Which empire tricked America twice into World Wars, when German steel
production exceeded that of the British?
   Wich empire gave Czehcoslovakia to the Germans, that was not its colony to
give away?
   Which empire took part in cutting Hungary into pieces at Trianon, and made
6 million Hungarians into foreign minorities on their own land?
   Which empire gave Hungary, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Bulgaria,
East Germany, Moldavia, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania to the Russians, that
were not its colonies to give away?
   Which former empire waged war on Argentina, upholding British traditions, th
e
home of many British expatriates, providing transport, postal and commercial
services to the Falkland Islands, but rejecting Argentine administration,
upholding the Machiavellian axiom: when in trouble at home, look for a
unifying war overseas?
   Which member of the European Community refused to sign the Maastricht Treaty
,
that would have provided a minimum wage and two weeks vacation per year for
its own workers?
   Which former empire refuses to allow independence and/or "devolution" for
Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland?
   Which government is holding into power by tooth and nail, even though its
seats are in minority, behind the polls by 25%, its privatization policies
of water, metro, etc. being spectacular failures, and many of its ministers
forced to resign amidst scandals?
   Which government advocates that high unemployment is good for the
economy, because the work force stays mobile, and capitalists can get cheap
labour where and when needed?
   Why the Dow-Jones averages go up, when the unemployment figures increase?...
   Aren't Anglo-Saxons the curse of the Earth?

   Well, the Tories were thrown out in Canada, Dole lost to Clinton in the U.S.
,
and soon Mr. Major will get his walking papers in the U.K.

   So, I am foretelling the demise of the Liberals in Canada (Canada was
never been so rich as now, and the wealth was never as unfairly
distributed), the Tories in the U.K. (the middle and lower classes have left
nothing more to give), and the Republicans in the U.S.(the multinationals
have had their chance, but failed).

   Comments?...
   Anyone?...
   Let's have a lively debate!
                                      Istvan L. Szabolcsy

Jeliko, never apologize four "verbous" answers, they are the ones I can
glean the most information from. Usually, when clearly written, they can
be the ones I will consider the most as well.


Darren Purcell
Program for Instructional Excellence
Department of Geography
Florida State University

Another douzy from Stephen Szabolcsy:

Most of racist junk deleted.

>   Aren't Anglo-Saxons the curse of the Earth?
>
>   Well, the Tories were thrown out in Canada, Dole lost to Clinton in the
U.S.,
>and soon Mr. Major will get his walking papers in the U.K.
>
>   So, I am foretelling the demise of the Liberals in Canada (Canada was
>never been so rich as now, and the wealth was never as unfairly
>distributed), the Tories in the U.K. (the middle and lower classes have left
>nothing more to give), and the Republicans in the U.S.(the multinationals
>have had their chance, but failed).

Hurray, the Labor party must be a conglomeration of Pakistanies and Indians
without any Anglo-Saxons as are according to the joy expressed the parties
favored by Stephen Szabolcsy in Canada and the US.

I am sorry but I missed the logic of your statements.

But just a few little side questions: What percentage of the population is
attending universities in the UK under the Tories compared to under previous
Labor governments?
That should be a good indication of how the middle classes are faring?

Do you know what segment (by yearly earning) of the population in the US is
paying the what percentage of the taxes?

If the multinationals pulled out of Canada what would happen to its economy?

Thank God for one man one vote.

Jeliko

At 12:01 PM 3/11/97 -0500, Andy wrote:

>>Eva:I hope you wayched last night episode of Chicago Hope.If not you missed
>something about your so called health providers.

        I didn't.

>I rather be stupid and not avare what I pay for my health insurance,but whar
>ever it is I prefer this one.

        And, of course, I don't think that you are stupid and it is
perfectly all right if you like the Canadian system better as long as you
know that it costs about the same as the American.

        Eva

There is now an English edition of Internetto, a Hungarian Internet
newsletter. One of the editors of the English-language edition, Laszlo Turi,
asked me to pass the following information on to you. You may want to take a
look at it.
        Eva Balogh

BEGINS:


Hungary's leading webzine starts English edition

BUDAPEST, HUNGARY, 1997 FEB 7 -- iNteRNeTTo (http://www.internetto.hu),
Hungary's most popular webzine launches its English edition to answer the
demand that was raised after January 8, when the editors organized an
on-line interview with Hungarian Prime Minister Gyula Horn. The unexpectedly
high interest, which in the end caused a localized network crash during the
interview, proved foreign web-surfers' general request for more English
language information on Hungary.

iNteRNeTTo Light (http://www.internetto.hu/light), the weekly updated
English edition is based on András Török's crash course on Budapest, an
unusual guide to Hungary's capital. Török sometimes calls himself a
"cyberdandy" referring to his CD-ROM and Internet-publications. Popular
Hungarian-American artist-musician, András Wahorn is also going to present
his works in iNteRNeTTo Light. In addition to cultural and entertainment
columns iNteRNeTTo Light offers weekly-updated news summary plus an on-line
CD-Shop of Bahia Music, publisher of Hungarian alternative rock'n'roll of
the late communist period and after.

iNteRNeTTo is published by the local branch of International Data Group, the
multinational IT-publisher. It regularly offers live shows and on-line
interviews with well-known politicians and intellectuals in addition to its
daily updated news and entertainment sections. A week after the Prime
Minister's interview, the president of Matáv Plc., the largest national PTT
was the guest. Besides its strong IT-bias iNteRNeTTo is also considered the
life-style magazine of Hungarian Internet-community. The number of readers
reach 11 000 per week, its free weekly newsletter is mailed to 6500
addresses, and it became one of the most influential Hungarian IT sources:
its news are regularly reprinted by leading daily and weekly papers. It also
has a countryside mutation, iNteRNeTTo Szeged
(http://www.tiszanet.hu/internetto), which offers daily news and programs.
iNteRNeTTo is accessible free of charge, the revenue is based on marketing
the site for advertisers. Microsoft, Silicon Graphics and a number of other
major Hungarian IT firms are among the advertisers.

---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:	 (Surjan Laszlo)
To:	 ')
Date: 97-03-11 15:45:25 EST

I have send  an email thanking the  deliberation of  P. Cseresnyes to Emil
Constantinescu. During my visit at Bucharest I had the opportunity to thank
him again personally. He had no idea of any email. Tomorrow I will see for a
short private discussion prime minister Ciorbea. I will mention Bela' thanks
and I will suggest to publish an email address for this new form of
communication and sign of direct democracy. 
Laszlo Surjan

----------
Feladó:  [SMTP:]
Elküldve:  1997. március 11. 14:27
Címzett:  
Másolatot kap:  
Tárgy:  HAL: Thanks to Ciorbea

"The Romanian prime minister said the fact that his first visit abroad
is to Hungary also underlines the special importance they attach to
the development of bilateral relations, to the strategic partnership
to be implemented with "our Hungarian friends".

Ciorbea said several cooperation documents will be signed during the
visit, and a committee will be set up to build relations. 

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Dear Colleagues,

It would seem appropriate to convey our thanks and support to Prime Minister
Ciorbea of Romania. Do we have his (or President Constantinescu's E-mail
address?)

Best regards: Bela Liptak

Stephen Szabolcsy obviously doesn't like the British very much, and
I am sure that England, like any other country on earth, has had its faults
through the centuries. I am sure that they don't always act wisely. For
example, I am not happy with their anti-European Union stance. However, this
is a bit too much.
        I am going to take only a few historical references and try to
answer them. I am sure others will take exception to some of the other
statements of Stephen.

>   Which empire tricked America twice into World Wars, when German steel
>production exceeded that of the British?

        One may argue about the necessity of American entry into World War I
but surely no one would question the absolute necessity to defeat nazi
Germany. And without the United States the defeat of Germany didn't look
terribly promising. One might even entertain the idea that without the
United States, at the end of the war the Soviet Union would have run down
whole of Europe, not only its eastern part. And by the way, Great Britain
didn't have to trick the United States into entering. It was in American
interest to enter. As for World War I it wasn't so much of British trickery
which made the United States join but rather German stupidity and insults.
The Germans underestimated American strength. They still thought of America
as a country of no consequence at the other end of the world. They were
mistaken. Since the Civil War the United States had become a mighty
industrial nation with a robust economy. The final outcome of the war didn't
really depend on bravery or on military strategy but on economic power.
Hence the shot in the arm with American entry.

>   Which empire took part in cutting Hungary into pieces at Trianon, and made
>6 million Hungarians into foreign minorities on their own land?

        Great Britain certainly took part considering that she was part of
the Entente but Great Britain was not antagonistic toward Hungary at the
peace conference. On the contrary, if it depended on the English, the
Czechoslovak-Hungarian border would have been a great deal more favorable to
Hungary. (And then we would have all those pieces of mail in our mailboxes
concerning the dam on the Danube.)

>   Which empire gave Hungary, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Bulgaria,
>East Germany, Moldavia, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania to the Russians, that
>were not its colonies to give away?

        Not Great Britain! Certainly Roosevelt was less suspicious of the
Soviets than Churchill was but in my humble opinion, even if Roosevelt had
been a lion fighting the Russians at the conference table, even then Eastern
Europe was lost. The Soviets were the ones who "liberated" that part of
Europe and they were in possession.

>   Which former empire refuses to allow independence and/or "devolution" for
>Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland?

        I am not going to talk about Wales and Scotland but northern Ireland
is not a clear-cut case. There is a huge non-Catholic minority in northern
Ireland and there is every reason to believe that their lot might not be an
enviable one if they have live in a unified Ireland.

>   Why the Dow-Jones averages go up, when the unemployment figures increase?..
.

        This topic has been discussed thoroughly, by the way, on the
Hungarian-language list. Most people know very little about the stock
market, except what they hear on the radio about the daily ups and downs of
the stock markets around the world. And they hear daily such reports as:
"the Dow-Jones industrial average lost 50 points as a result of lower
unemployment figures." Yes, unemployment figures are one of the indicators
which are taken into consideration by investors. Not only in the Anglo-Saxon
world, but everywhere where there are stock markets. When unemployment
figures decrease there is a fear of inflation. (More people employed, more
people can go out shopping!) And inflation, as we all know, is not very good
for the state of the economy and to our pocketbooks. But it doesn't mean
that if there was suddenly a huge rise in unemployment figures the stock
exchanges all over the world would rejoice. Not at all, because such a huge
rise in unemployment figures would indicate serious economic troubles. In
brief, the stock markets--Anglo-Saxon or not--don't like either too sluggish
or too overheated economies.

>   Well, the Tories were thrown out in Canada, Dole lost to Clinton in the
U.S.,
>and soon Mr. Major will get his walking papers in the U.K.

        I am a little confused. I thought that you didn't like the
Anglo-Saxons (and that would include Great Britain, the United States,
Canada, Australia, New Zealand, just to mention a few important ones), but
now I see that you don't like conservatives, or what you consider to be
conservatives. There were some very good Republicans in office and there
were some very good Conservatives in office in England. I wouldn't generalize.

>   So, I am foretelling the demise of the Liberals in Canada (Canada was
>never been so rich as now, and the wealth was never as unfairly
>distributed),

        Oh, I thought that progressive conservatives are the real
conservatives. But, I assume you are looking at the scene from the point of
view of the New Democrats.

 the Tories in the U.K. (the middle and lower classes have left
>nothing more to give),

        Sure, they will lose this election but they will return again a few
years later, when the Labour Party exhausted itself and the population wants
a political change.

>and the Republicans in the U.S.(the multinationals
>have had their chance, but failed).

        I don't quite understand this. Do you equate the Republicans with
the multinationals? I am a bit confused.

        Eva Balogh

At 08:56 AM 3/10/97 -0800, Stephen Szabolcsy copies a few letters to the
editor from the Globe and Mail. Among them, the Slovak consul's from Toronto:

>   If Slovakia is not allowed into NATO, there will be established a
>corridor of non-NATO members stretching from the Ukraine in the east,
>through Slovakia and Austria, to Switzerland, providing easy access by
>Russia right into the middle of Europe. This is the kind of defence of
>Europe you would advocate?
>                                    John V. Stephens, Consulate
>                                 of the Slovak Republic, Toronto

        I find this rather funny. The right hand doesn't seem to know what
the left hand is doing. Meciar at the moment is embarking on a referendum
which will surely defeat any Slovak desire (of which there is none) to join
NATO. Meciar knows that Slovakia has not met the requirements for NATO
membership. Its democracy is highly questionable. Its treatment of the
Hungarian minority (in spite of the treaty signed and sealed between the
country) is abysmal. So, in order to look good, Meciar acts as if Slovakia
really didn't want to join NATO.

>   It is hard to guess, where Mr. Chretien gets his advise, but it seems to
>me, as an average Canadian, that NATO should admit only the countries that
>can contribute to it, not dilute its strenghts and values.
>                                  Alec M. Bialski, Edmonton

        Not that Mr. Chretien's advice counts one way or the other but I
agree with our Polish-Canadian: where is he getting his advice?


>   Why not abandon NATO altogether? The Russians would be pleased.
>   The Russians may be paranoid, but they are not stupid. They know very
>well that NATO, with or without the Central European countries, is not
>threatening them. On the other hand, they know that when the Central
>European countries become part of NATO, Russia cannot bully them any more.
>   Poland, Hungary and the Czeh Republic historically and culturally are
>part of the West. It was tragic that these countries - along with other
>Central and Eastern European countries - were sold out to the Soviets after
>the Second World War. These countries were kept captive, exploited
>economically and ruined morally, while Western Europe prospered. Your
>argument, that "we are broadening a security guarantee we might one day have
>to honor" does not hold water.
>   Kuwait, Bosnia, etc. are not NATO members, nevertheless, Canada got
involved.
>NATO memberships for Hungarians, Czehs and Poles are the best guarantee that
>future involvement in this region will not be needed.
>                                     Tibor Kovats, Ottawa

        Well, I don't know whether this Tibor Kovats is the same old friend
from Ottawa with whom I shared the same circle of friends after 1957 until I
left Ottawa but this Tibor Kovats is right.

        Eva Balogh

At 05:24 PM 3/10/97 -0500, Jeliko wrote:

>Well, I would put Romania ahead of Albania and Bulgaria.

        Or Slovakia. Yes, I fully agree with you. Too bad that Romania's
elections didn't come a couple of years ago, then their chanches were a
great deal better than now. It is also in Hungary's interest to have Romania
in NATO and the Hungarian ministry of defense is doing everything in its
power to help them along. So does the foreign ministry.

        Eva Balogh

At 10:11 PM 3/11/97 +0100, Gyorgy Tokodi wrote:
>Thank you Miklos for your further interest. The fact is I don't
>feel any nostalgy about "existing socialism" and I'd like to make
>even Balogh Eva understand that change of the political system
>wasn't a redemption for the greater part of society.
>Now I list some reasons without a claim of completeness:
>- the political changes and their socialpsychological consequences
>- narrow-minded governments with a lot of missed possibilities
>- high inflation, western prices, eastern wages
>- 500.000 jobless, 30% of them starting their career
>- pauperization of masses
>- corruption, total lack of confidence, intolerance
>- disappointment in constitutional state, in parties
>- loss of values, moral crisis
>- appearence of crime of "new type"
>- weakness of civil society

        The only thing you have neglected to mention that all these ills are
the result of fifty years of existing socialism.

        Eva Balogh

---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:    (Surjan Laszlo)
To:      ')
Date: 97-03-11 15:45:25 EST

I have send  an email thanking the  deliberation of  P. Cseresnyes to Emil
Constantinescu. During my visit at Bucharest I had the opportunity to thank
him again personally. He had no idea of any email. Tomorrow I will see for a
short private discussion prime minister Ciorbea. I will mention Bela' thanks
and I will suggest to publish an email address for this new form of
communication and sign of direct democracy. 
Laszlo Surjan

----------
Feladó:  [SMTP:]
Elküldve:  1997. március 11. 14:27
Címzett:  
Másolatot kap:  
Tárgy:  HAL: Thanks to Ciorbea

"The Romanian prime minister said the fact that his first visit abroad
is to Hungary also underlines the special importance they attach to
the development of bilateral relations, to the strategic partnership
to be implemented with "our Hungarian friends".

Ciorbea said several cooperation documents will be signed during the
visit, and a committee will be set up to build relations. 

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Dear Colleagues,

It would seem appropriate to convey our thanks and support to Prime Minister
Ciorbea of Romania. Do we have his (or President Constantinescu's E-mail
address?)

Best regards: Bela Liptak

Thank you Gyuri,
I wanted to learn YOUR interpretation of what you meant
before sending you back in the really-existing-seventh-heaven.

I am afraid, we must share your <worry about this small land of
ours>. Moving around a lot there, I see it similarly. Major
transitions do take tolls. And the tolls are high. The political
changes 89-90 came at a time when the system was already bancrupt,
maintained by foreign credits ( Waiter, charge the bill to the next
generation ). This makes transition much more hurting...And
transition, change always causes anxiety, stress...

Loss of values, moral crisis are phenomena, most of the deve-
loped countries share with Hungary. This doesn4t make things
easier either...

More redemption is needed...I only hope, it is not "delibab",
the light at the end of the tunnel.
Uedv,
Miklos

Gyorgy Tokodi wrote :
<Thank you Miklos for your further interest. The fact is I don't
<feel any nostalgy about "existing socialism" and I'd like to make
<even Balogh Eva understand that change of the political system
<wasn't a redemption for the greater part of society.
<Now I list some reasons without a claim of completeness:
<- the political changes and their socialpsychological consequences
<- narrow-minded governments with a lot of missed possibilities
<- high inflation, western prices, eastern wages
<- 500.000 jobless, 30% of them starting their career
<- pauperization of masses
<- corruption, total lack of confidence, intolerance
<- disappointment in constitutional state, in parties
<- loss of values, moral crisis
<- appearence of crime of "new type"
<- weakness of civil society
<Bye for now, I really worry about this small land of ours, Gyuri

<Felads: Miklos K. Hoffmann >
<Cmmzett: Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY >
<Targy: Re: Va: Health care systems
<Datum: 1997. marcius 11. 12.47

<Eva S. Balogh wrote:
>
> At 10:15 PM 3/10/97 +0100, Gyorgy Tokody wrote:
> >You're wrong, stress and anxiety is much higher under the recent
> >political system (in Hungary). Udv: Tokodi Gyorgy
>
>         Well, in that case, you ought to turn the clock back and go back to
> the good old system of "existing socialism." I am sure that the death rates
> are going to reversed in absolutely no time.
>
>         Eva Balogh
<I4d like to ask him, WHAT did he mean.
<Miklos

<Another douzy from Stephen Szabolcsy:

<Most of racist junk deleted.

>   Aren't Anglo-Saxons the curse of the Earth?
>
>   Well, the Tories were thrown out in Canada, Dole lost to Clinton in the
U.S.,
>and soon Mr. Major will get his walking papers in the U.K.
>
>   So, I am foretelling the demise of the Liberals in Canada (Canada was
>never been so rich as now, and the wealth was never as unfairly
>distributed), the Tories in the U.K. (the middle and lower classes have left
>nothing more to give), and the Republicans in the U.S.(the multinationals
>have had their chance, but failed).

<Hurray, the Labor party must be a conglomeration of Pakistanies and Indians
<without any Anglo-Saxons as are according to the joy expressed the parties
<favored by Stephen Szabolcsy in Canada and the US.

<I am sorry but I missed the logic of your statements.

<But just a few little side questions: What percentage of the population is
<attending universities in the UK under the Tories compared to under previous
<Labor governments?
<That should be a good indication of how the middle classes are faring?

<Do you know what segment (by yearly earning) of the population in the US is
<paying the what percentage of the taxes?

<If the multinationals pulled out of Canada what would happen to its economy?

<Thank God for one man one vote.

<Jeliko

Jeliko, don4t get upset and don4t argue. DO NOT expect logic in
such pamphlets. YOU don4t get involved in such a baiting.

Enjoy the opportunity to observe how nazis agitate. Well, it is not
the jews this time, for a change...A much larger population, signa-
lizing rising self-confidence.

But I am sure, Szabolcsy is just joking and trying to divert us
from getting bugged down in the US/Canadian health systems...

( Stephen should avoid touching German territory : his text on the
Internet suffices entirely for getting him jailed, without anybody
reporting him )

There must be better topics. Even after the long elaborations about
the kulaks ( we just learnt, the KULAKs are the course of Earth, we can4t
switch to Anglo-Saxons! ), this would be to annoying.

Miklos

An excellenet analysis, Jeliko!

Agnes
>
>Hungary is currently governed by a party that is one of the inheritors
of
>the es communist government. They call themselves socialist and they do
not
>act in all aspects like the old communists. They came into power after
the
>failure of the first postcommunist center right government to deal well
with
>the economic issues inherited from the communist goverments.
>
>In my opinion, regardless of what type of government that came into
power
>after the
>de facto communist government, it would have lost the second free
election.
>The problems of transitioning from a communist economy into a normal one
is
>enormous and
>the population is generally impatient (and in some cases expects
miracles).
>The population of excommunist countries is also less experienced with
the
>free political process and at least to date more subject to media
>manipulation, (although such behavior is not exclusive to excommunist
>countries).
>
>The maturity of the mass communication media in eastern Europe is still
>behind that of the more varied western media. Most of the
"communicators"
>grew up under the old regime
>and they seem to miss the various financial and security umbrella
privilages
>which existed under the communist regimes. The openness of the post
>communist governments
>needs a lot of improvement. What actually is under the control and the
>capability of action of any government is not well understood by the
general
>populations in eastren Europe.
>
>But, as an example in Romania, the post Ceaucescu government was also de
>facto consisting of excommunists and they lost the second election, the
same
>thing happened
>recently in Lithuania and will probably occur in Hungary by the next
>election. It is a long road to improved economic conditions after 40
years
>of communist economies. Capital accumulation, change in work habits, the
>encouragement of personal initiatives
>the development of business accumen and the understanding of
competitiveness
>are still lacking in eastern Europe. Schemes of "get rich quick" are
>prevalent (just see the Albanian pyramid schemes, which had parallels in
all
>ex communist block countries) and when they fail, most people blame the
>government rather than themselves.
>
>It is also important to remember that Hngary on a relative basis was
better
>off then nearby fellow traveler countries in the last years under
communist
>control. While part of the improved living standard occurred becuase of
>foreign (manly private western) bank loans, now when both principal and
>interest needs to be paid back, people only remember the times when they
>lived better albeit on borrowed funds. Under the later communist
>governments, life in most eastern European countries was somewhat
bucolic.
>One did not really have a comparable to western lifestyle, but very few
>people were in the actual poverty class. They did not have to work hard,
>they did not have to think of tomorrow. It was like in the US living on
>welfare. Some funds came every month, not much, but it was assured for
>almost everyone without working hard or worrying about
>the future. The change in that mentality is not instaneous anywhere, and
>when very little local example exists showing the reason for living
>differently, it is even harder.
>
>It is also important to remember that what people got in the governments
>consisting of many excommunists is different than what the previous de
facto
>communis governments were. They are not totalitarians, and they have the
>capability of loosing elections, which never was a possibility before.
Thus
>their behavior is different even if they are
>still not understanding exactly what democracy is. But that fault cannot
be
>ascribed solely to excommunists.
>
>Hope this helps.
>
>Regards,Jeliko.

Eva S. Balogh wrote:

>snip

>         I find this rather funny. The right hand doesn't seem to know what
> the left hand is doing. Meciar at the moment is embarking on a referendum
> which will surely defeat any Slovak desire (of which there is none)
                                             ------------------------
<snip

 ..none? I DO know Slovaks seeing it differently

> to join

<snip

Miklos Hoffmann

Bela Liptak wrote:
>
> ---------------------
> Forwarded message:
> From:    (Surjan Laszlo)
> To:      ')
> Date: 97-03-11 15:45:25 EST
>
> I have send  an email thanking the  deliberation of  P. Cseresnyes to Emil
> Constantinescu. During my visit at Bucharest I had the opportunity to thank
> him again personally. He had no idea of any email. Tomorrow I will see for a
> short private discussion prime minister Ciorbea. I will mention Bela' thanks
> and I will suggest to publish an email address for this new form of
> communication and sign of direct democracy.
> Laszlo Surjan
>
> ----------
> Felads:  [SMTP:]
> Elk|ldve:  1997. marcius 11. 14:27
> Cmmzett:  
> Masolatot kap:  
> Targy:  HAL: Thanks to Ciorbea
>
> "The Romanian prime minister said the fact that his first visit abroad
> is to Hungary also underlines the special importance they attach to
> the development of bilateral relations, to the strategic partnership
> to be implemented with "our Hungarian friends".
>
> Ciorbea said several cooperation documents will be signed during the
> visit, and a committee will be set up to build relations.
>
> XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
> Dear Colleagues,
>
> It would seem appropriate to convey our thanks and support to Prime Minister
> Ciorbea of Romania. Do we have his (or President Constantinescu's E-mail
> address?)
>
> Best regards: Bela Liptak

try . This is the only email-address I found on the site
of the Rumanian Government.
Miklos

<Jeliko, never apologize four "verbous" answers, they are the ones I can
<glean the most information from. Usually, when clearly written, they can
<be the ones I will consider the most as well.


<Darren Purcell
<Program for Instructional Excellence
<Department of Geography
<Florida State University

Aye, Aye!
( maybe <do not> instead of <never> )
Miklos Hoffmann

Kedves Eva, allitasaid 1/8 resze igaz, 1/8 resze hamis,
1/4 resze tevedes, 1/2 resze tudatos dezinformalas. Megnyugtat
viszont, hogy szamolni meg a hvg-forumon elszenvedett
pofonok ellenere sem tanultal meg, ugyanis Magyarorszagon
valamivel tobb, mint 40000 orvos van es kb. 10,5 millio lakos.
Ezt a ket szamot akarhogy osztom egymassal, nem jon ki az
altalad emlitett 76,9 ratio. Ha elfogadnank ezt a ratiot, az kozel
130000 orvost feltetelezne, ennyivel pedig mar Mississippit is
lehet rekeszteni. Legkozelebb, ha tobb idom lesz, majd angolul
is irok tevedeseidrol es ragalmaidrol, bar remelem a lista tagjainak
tobbsege beszeli meg ezt a nyelvet. Udv Gyuri

----------
Feladó: Eva S. Balogh >
Címzett: Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY >
Tárgy: Re: Health care systems
Dátum: 1997. március 11. 1.35

At 08:10 AM 3/10/97 -0800, Stephen Szabolcsy wrote:

>    So, it is not easy to figure out, how much Canadians pay for their
>health care system. It changes from province to province and city to city,
>varies with occupation, property ownership, etc., etc. The overhelming
>majority would not want to change it.

        Since Stephen wrote this I have written a piece in which I think I
pretty accurately calculated the cost of health care in Canada by simply
taking the percentage of GDP/person. I understand that the system is
complicated, but it does boil down to a certain percentage of the GDP which
is a known figure. In Canada's case 13.5 percent.

>(b) About Hungary:
>   My niece, who is a doctor in Kaposvar, Hungary, has visited us last year.
>My neighbor, who is on the local hospital board, has arranged a whole day visi
t
>for her. I went along. A Canadian doctor guided us through everything, from ad
-
>mission to brain scanning. They could not show her anything new that did not
>already exists in Kaposvar.

        I also have several physicians in my family, but I am afraid the
situation is not as simple as it first seems. I grant that lifestyle has a
lot to do with mortality. Yes, the diet is too fatty, and yes, the
percentage of smokers is one of the highest in Europe. (And even in Western
Europe the percentage of smokers is much higher than in Canada or the United
States.) And yes, a very large percentage of the population drinks too much.
However, there are some very serious problems with the whole health care
system, a fact few Hungarian doctors are ready to admit.
        First of all, believe it or not Hungary has so many doctors that one
can "dam up the Danube with them," to use a Hungarian expression. For every
76.9 people there is one physician. For comparison, in Canada the ratio is
550:1, in the United States 520:1, in France 580:1, in Switzerland 410:1, in
Sweden: 490:1. However, most of the these doctors do what in other countries
are done by qualified nurses and technicians. Until recently there was no
such thing as training of nurses at college level. (Nowadays there are a few
colleges [foiskola as opposed to egyetem] which are called "egeszsegugyi
foiskola." The Hungarian Statistical Yearbook translated it as "sanitary,"
and therefore I am not even sure whether they are training nurses or not.)
Ultrasound pictures which are done here by qualified technicians only to be
"read" by the doctors, is actually done by doctors in Hungary. One relative
of mine is a "radiologist," who spends most of her time putting that
vaseline-like stuff on people's tummy and pushing that handle back and
forth. (And by the way, the "radiologist" is a heavy smoker.)
        Nurses in Hungary don't have adequate training--high-school-level
training is what most of them get. There are about 20 specialized high
schools (sanitary vocational schools--as the Statistical Yearbook calls
them) graduating about 1,500 students a year. These are obviously not nurses
in the sense we think of nurses. More like nurses-aids. Thus, most of the
so-called nurses do not much more than changing bed pans. Anything more
serious has to be done by the doctor, including drawing blood. (A young
relative of mine on her rotation did nothing else in "internal medicine" but
draw blood. I am not terribly sure that this is the proper way  of training
young physicians.)
        Then comes the problem of ambulances. They don't have enough and
although they have 148 hospitals (for a country of barely 10 million) most
of the hospitals can't really handle more complicated surgery. Thus, it can
happen that the ambulance takes the patience to Hospital X only to be turned
away after a quick examination because Hospital X can't handle the case.
Just recently there was a case where a young Hungarian from Romania was
dragged this way from hospital to hospital because someone shot a dart into
her throat (however bizarre that sounds but that's what happened) and only
the third or fourth hospital was ready to handle her case. (It is altogether
another matter why the ambulence driver didn't know which hospital handles
what.) And yes, there are the 148 hospitals with more than enough beds.
There are 96 beds for 10,000 inhabitants. Really high number: in the United
States the same number is 183, in England it is 126 and in Switzerland it is
179. However, most of these beds are not occupied by people who actually
need them but elderly patients who should be in nursing homes. Their
children have "connection" and they manage to bribe the doctors to keep
"mama" or "papa" in the hospital indefinitely. Meanwhile, when a patient
arrives with legitimate complaints they are often turned away. One example,
close to home. I had a much older first cousin who about a year ago died of
a heart attack. She and her family visited the theater Sunday night and Iren
wasn't feeling well. Off they drove to the hospital, where they had a hell
of time to gain admission. Only the fact that her daughter-in-law was a
doctor at the same hospital managed to convince the doctors on duty to admit
my cousin. She was in the early stages of a massive heart attack. She died a
day later in the hospital. Of course, it is very possible that she would
have died anyway but when the doctors on duty are admitting her only
reluctantly there is suspicion that perhaps they weren't quite prepared for
the massive heart attack which followed. And when they woke up, it was too
late. That is my suspicion.
        Then comes the question of cancer patients. Ask anyone in Hungary
and he/she will tell you that in most cases the doctors don't even bother to
tell the patient that he/she has cancer. (I guess Hungarian doctors think
that it is too much of a shock!!!) But, how can you treat cancer effectively
if you don't do what is being done in most country in cancer cases:
chemotherapy and radiation, to mention the two most obvious ones.
        These are just a few of the problems and I am sure that one could
add more. In any case, I think it is a simplification to chuck up everything
to stress and diet. We have enough stress in this country too. More and more
people are using oil instead of butter or lard. And even alcohol and tobacco
consumption is decreasing. But you can't just say that the health care is
absolutely free of blame. There has been very little attempt, by the way, to
educate people about health matters. Often the doctors themselves are
surprisingly ignorant. One doctor on the Internet a couple of years ago
expounded on his theory that homosexuality is like smoking you get hooked on
it and then it is difficult to quit!!!

>   I accept that some older Hungarians have still more confidence in North
>American health care systems. I know others, however, who returned to the
>old country and are satisfied with the care there, or they do not give it
>high priority.

        Well, you know, I am not fussy but the decrepit Hungarian hospitals
somehow don't inspire much confidence in me. Or the fact that only about 200
cataract operations are being performed today in the whole country and the
rest of the older folks with cataracts can wonder around half blind, or that
very few bypass surgery is being done and you have to have "connections" to
have one.

        Otherwise, everything is peachy pie.

        Eva

Thank you Miklos for your further interest. The fact is I don't
feel any nostalgy about "existing socialism" and I'd like to make
even Balogh Eva understand that change of the political system
wasn't a redemption for the greater part of society.
Now I list some reasons without a claim of completeness:
- the political changes and their socialpsychological consequences
- narrow-minded governments with a lot of missed possibilities
- high inflation, western prices, eastern wages
- 500.000 jobless, 30% of them starting their career
- pauperization of masses
- corruption, total lack of confidence, intolerance
- disappointment in constitutional state, in parties
- loss of values, moral crisis
- appearence of crime of "new type"
- weakness of civil society
Bye for now, I really worry about this small land of ours, Gyuri
Feladó: Miklos K. Hoffmann >
Címzett: Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY >
Tárgy: Re: Va: Health care systems
Dátum: 1997. március 11. 12.47

Eva S. Balogh wrote:
>
> At 10:15 PM 3/10/97 +0100, Gyorgy Tokody wrote:
> >You're wrong, stress and anxiety is much higher under the recent
> >political system (in Hungary). Udv: Tokodi Gyorgy
>
>         Well, in that case, you ought to turn the clock back and go back to
> the good old system of "existing socialism." I am sure that the death rates
> are going to reversed in absolutely no time.
>
>         Eva Balogh
I4d like to ask him, WHAT did he mean.
Miklos